Bad mouthing Kata, and other martial arts training methods

[Drag'n]

One of the problem with the perception of kata comes from not being able to seperate the technique from the training tool. For example, when someone says "If you get in a fight, you'll punch from the hip and get clobbered." They're missing the positives that punching motion in the kata introduces. Chambering at the hip etc all encourages you to keep your elbows in, even when you move to free sparring. You're not still punching from the hip then, but the exaggeration gets the principle across.

Same thing with stances. Do you fight from a static stance, or specifically from a horse stance etc in free fighting? Nope. Doesn't mean you don't hit on them while you're in motion even if it's briefly.

Even if you blithely discount those, it's about the same as discounting wrestling drills, NHB stances, boxing footwork etc. It doesn't make sense. The're all just the means to the end, not the end in of theselves. If you were losing in tournaments it wasn't because you weren't able to use the techniques, it's because you couldn't see the forest for the trees, and the people who could see the bigger picture excelled where you stagnated.

OK the point is: the drills ,stances ,footwork used in modern systems are based on realistic tried and tested techniques.They are fluid and translate DIRECTLY into sparring movements.Theirs no hinting at ,no hiding,no exagerations and no BS.I've seen many a fight between traditional MAtists where once the contact starts all their precision and poise goes straight out the window and it turns into an embarrassing flurry of wild punches and kicks.Why? because their training methods didnt resemble actual combat.
AND the reason I sometimes lost was symply because my opponents were more aggressive . The defensive techniques I had been taught were not effective enough to hold off someone whos really intent on knocking your head off.

 

[rmcrobertson]

There's a great article by Dave Lowry in a recent, "Journal of Asian Martial Arts," concerning kata.

Among other thiongs, he quotes a "Peanuts Cartoon," where Lucy and Linus are sitting on the floor, reading a book and laughing...Charlie Brown asks, "Why are you laughing?"

The response is, "Because we don't understand it."

Hm.

 

[Marginal]

I
think traditionalists really have to open their eyes and take a good hard look at their techniques and training methods.Have you tested them against a trained fighter?Do you have the confidence in your art to try?

Yep. But then, the techniques I've learned aren't obscure, and I wasn't trying to apply them with no understanding of how to do so. (Still not sure how you can claim you posessed "greater skill" when you were getting beaten down while aso advocating results based MMA groupspeak but whatever...)

 

[rmcrobertson]

And why blame the forms and the practice for our stupidity?

 

[qizmoduis]

And why blame the forms and the practice for our stupidity?

It's easier, of course. Blaming is far easier than doing.

 

[BlackCatBonz]

well IMHO, i think everything you do in life can be turned into a kata. they are like the ABC's of martial arts. to think that kata's are strictly a set of techniques to be used concurrently in a fight is ludicrous. drag'n, you related about your muay thai experience in training, to me this would be considered kata. you could practice the same movements with or without another person to help you. if you can make a martial application out of brushing your hair or opening a door.....that too is a kata. when teaching someone a gedan barai for instance.....i never refer to it as a downblock for a kick.....and any teacher that does that has missed the boat. the name gedan barai means lower parry, and when practiced properly the hands arms legs and body should move in harmony creating an alignment advantageous to self defense. also, i see lots of people that practice kata's go into the actual stance at the completion of every technique........start-stop-start-stop.....if people walked down the street like that it would make an excellent short movie for monty python's ministry of silly walks. kata's are about transition from one movement to another while creating alignments. with the gedan barai, its final resting place somewhere above your thigh just happens to be the end of the movement, not the technique itself. what about all the stuff that happens before it even gets there? i see uchi uke, kote gaeshi, shiho nage, endless possibilities. btw.....i wasnt directing this at you drag'n....i was merely using your experience with muay thai as an example.

as you can probably tell.....i love kata

shawn bailey

ps.....if you go to the martialtalk reference library.....you can find a downloadable video for sanchin......and its done excellent

 

[rmcrobertson]

I've decided that the folks who practice martial arts that have kata, and who refuse to take them seriously because they don't see the point, should continue forward doing exactly what they're doing.

They are absolutely right. One hundred percent. Keep up the good work.

After all, there are no secrets in kata. Except, of course, that the ones people insist upon putting there.

 

[ppko]

I've decided that the folks who practice martial arts that have kata, and who refuse to take them seriously because they don't see the point, should continue forward doing exactly what they're doing.

They are absolutely right. One hundred percent. Keep up the good work.

After all, there are no secrets in kata. Except, of course, that the ones people insist upon putting there.

I agree to certain point, I at one time stopped doing kata as did our whole school because at the time kata was useless to us it was just a dance. But once I ot with the organization I am with now (DKI) I now do kata on a regular basis it has opened my eyes to a whole new world. I would say that if you can find a instructor that can show you some good break downs than stay with them and learn from them but until you can see for yourself what I am talking about than you will never understand

 

[BlackCatBonz]

I've decided that the folks who practice martial arts that have kata, and who refuse to take them seriously because they don't see the point, should continue forward doing exactly what they're doing.

They are absolutely right. One hundred percent. Keep up the good work.

After all, there are no secrets in kata. Except, of course, that the ones people insist upon putting there.

i think i detected a sarcastic tone in this......lol

shawn

 

[D.Cobb]

Those are all good points.
And I'm sure some of you do use more practical steps in the process of taking your kata moves to an applyable level.No doubt I had alot of bad teachers.None of my traditional teachers had been in a realistic confrontation and it showed in their teaching methods.But before I did MT I was too naive to recognise the difference.Sadly I think my experience was a very common one among traditional martial artists.
After MT ,every dojo I visited reeked of impracticality.I'm not trying to say MT is the best and everyone should do it.Far from it. But MT did open my eyes to the faults in the teaching methods common to traditional MA.
The argument that understanding a kata takes years is not a good argument for the use of it as a SD training tool.Quite the opposite.
Hiding techniques within katas, and stylising their movements may have had a good purpose in fuedal societies where ordinary people were banned from martial training or to keep their fighting secrets from enemy spies.But today any Joe can go to a MMA or kick boxing gym and learn the most effective techniques, proven and tested in countless full contact matches,through the most efficient training methods.They learn how to fight FAST.And they dont get the benefit of the deeper spiritual and character developing purposes behind traditional arts.They're tough , like to fight,and are itching for a chance to prove how dangerous they are.Indeed some of them are a big danger..to society that is.
The reason I'm so critical of kata is because I've seen too many dojos teaching rediculous moves from katas against telegraphed unrealistic attacks,and poor students who havent had the experience to know any better get sucked into thinking these moves will actually work.
I waisted too many years/money/ sweat/ blood/trying to perfect BS defensive techniques based on hearsay of their effectiveness.
I'm also concerened about the direction that some modern MA are taking .I
think traditionalists really have to open their eyes and take a good hard look at their techniques and training methods.Have you tested them against a trained fighter?Do you have the confidence in your art to try?
If we want the traditional values and ideals to survive I think we have to really put our methods to the test and bring them to a compatible level with modern fighting systems.
Truth is I love practising kata.But only as a means of self perfection.Its like meditation in motion for me, and it has many benifits.But I've never seen anyone who could convince me that kata is an essential tool for learning how to fight.But I'm always open to new possibilities.Maybe someone will someday prove me wrong.I hope so.I'd love to teach kata someday.
But for the moment I can only speak truthfully according to what I have seen and experienced.

That is the truley sad part of it. People teaching kata have absolutely no idea what it is that they are supposed to be teaching.
Kata, won't teach you how to fight in real time, and was never meant to. Kata will teach you, principles you need to be effective in a fight.
Kata will teach you concepts to be internalised so that you can use them when you are in a fight.
Kata will show you targets to be struck, and how to strike them when you are in a fight.
Kata will teach you about body mechanics, (ie. which foot forward makes this hammer fist work best?), and how to utilise your best assets in a situation.
Kata will teach you the geometry of a fight, which angle works best, in what direction etc.
Kata will teach you how to breathe and maintain control in a situation, once you've trained it right.
Kata wont teach you timing or distancing, or WHAT IF? factors. For this you need drills, which when broken down to their very base element could be construed as mini katas.

The real problem though is that a lot of our martial arts instructors attempt to teach something they have no comprehension of. It's kind of like, learning to swim by reading a book. But to make it harder for you, the book is written in Japanese, and you only speak English. Sometimes it's because they got out on their own before developing a true understanding, and sometimes it's because their teacher didn't know either.
Either way, it is a shame.
Sorry about the long winded post.

--Dave

 

[D.Cobb]

i think i detected a sarcastic tone in this......lol

shawn

I find it hard to believe that anyone would ever detect a sarcstic tone in any post by rmcrobertson :ultracool

--Dave

 

[rmcrobertson]

Nah. If you wanna see me waxing sarcastic, figure out how to get me started on, a) gawdawful kata at tournements by "senior," figures in American kenpo; b) "traditional," martial artists; c) phonyism in competition kata; d) phony ki-ais; e) ESPN and Satan.

 

[BlackCatBonz]

Nah. If you wanna see me waxing sarcastic, figure out how to get me started on, a) gawdawful kata at tournements by "senior," figures in American kenpo; b) "traditional," martial artists; c) phonyism in competition kata; d) phony ki-ais; e) ESPN and Satan.

lol

shawn

 

[RRouuselot]

Those are all good points.
And I'm sure some of you do use more practical steps in the process of taking your kata moves to an applyable level.No doubt I had alot of bad teachers.None of my traditional teachers had been in a realistic confrontation and it showed in their teaching methods.But before I did MT I was too naive to recognise the difference.Sadly I think my experience was a very common one among traditional martial artists.
After MT ,every dojo I visited reeked of impracticality.I'm not trying to say MT is the best and everyone should do it.Far from it. But MT did open my eyes to the faults in the teaching methods common to traditional MA.
The argument that understanding a kata takes years is not a good argument for the use of it as a SD training tool.Quite the opposite.
Hiding techniques within katas, and stylising their movements may have had a good purpose in fuedal societies where ordinary people were banned from martial training or to keep their fighting secrets from enemy spies.But today any Joe can go to a MMA or kick boxing gym and learn the most effective techniques, proven and tested in countless full contact matches,through the most efficient training methods.They learn how to fight FAST.And they dont get the benefit of the deeper spiritual and character developing purposes behind traditional arts.They're tough , like to fight,and are itching for a chance to prove how dangerous they are.Indeed some of them are a big danger..to society that is.
1) The reason I'm so critical of kata is because I've seen too many dojos teaching rediculous moves from katas against telegraphed unrealistic attacks,and poor students who havent had the experience to know any better get sucked into thinking these moves will actually work.
I waisted too many years/money/ sweat/ blood/trying to perfect BS defensive techniques based on hearsay of their effectiveness.
I'm also concerened about the direction that some modern MA are taking .I
think traditionalists really have to open their eyes and take a good hard look at their techniques and training methods.2)Have you tested them against a trained fighter? Do you have the confidence in your art to try?
If we want the traditional values and ideals to survive I think we have to really put our methods to the test and bring them to a compatible level with modern fighting systems.
Truth is I love practising kata.But only as a means of self perfection.Its like meditation in motion for me, and it has many benifits.But I've never seen anyone who could convince me that kata is an essential tool for learning how to fight.But I'm always open to new possibilities.Maybe someone will someday prove me wrong.I hope so.I'd love to teach kata someday.
But for the moment I can only speak truthfully according to what I have seen and experienced.

1) brother I feel ya on that one! I too have seen too many dojo in Japan that just taught garbage plain and simple. They taught unrealistic definitions for movements in the kata that were only equaled by un-realistic fight scenarios/situations.

2) Yup. And untrained ones which due to their lack of training can be more unpredictable and sometimes more dangerous, but not always.

 

[Drag'n]

I decided to find out once and for all if there was any basis for the arguement for kata practise.After reading some of his posts I figured Robert Rousselot would be the man to see.BOY did he open my eyes!
Kata movements which are usually refered to as blocks or silly looking strikes turned out to be joint attacks/atemi waza/takedowns/chokes/even submission! All practised in a realistic mannor, and then used effectively(on me)in a full contact freesparing situation.I was very impressed.Those of you who practise these kind of no nonsense SD skills from your kata have my utmost respect.
Sorry if any of my earlier comments offended any of you real karateka.But you cant blame me really eh? After all much of what I said still applies to probably 90% of the dojos around.
Its sad that there are so many BS systems and teachers out there giving real Martial artists a poor image.
Now I cant wait to get back out to Roberts dojo and learn some kata!

 

[RRouuselot]

I decided to find out once and for all if there was any basis for the arguement for kata practise.After reading some of his posts I figured Robert Rousselot would be the man to see.BOY did he open my eyes!
Kata movements which are usually refered to as blocks or silly looking strikes turned out to be joint attacks/atemi waza/takedowns/chokes/even submission! All practised in a realistic mannor, and then used effectively(on me)in a full contact freesparing situation.I was very impressed.Those of you who practise these kind of no nonsense SD skills from your kata have my utmost respect.
Sorry if any of my earlier comments offended any of you real karateka.But you cant blame me really eh? After all much of what I said still applies to probably 90% of the dojos around.
Its sad that there are so many BS systems and teachers out there giving real Martial artists a poor image.
Now I cant wait to get back out to Roberts dojo and learn some kata!

Glad you enjoyed the training. We just ran through some basic stuff yesterday rather quickly. You are always welcome to come and train with us.
I have to admit you surprised me the other day. Most people from these MT, E-Budo, etc that come to my dojo to train have not been high caliber people and always want to let me know how many dan ranks they collected, or try and tell me how much they “know”. More often than not they can’t perform the most basic of techniques and don’t last one class. However, you didn’t do any of that you just jumped into the training and kept going even after you got your nose split open and started bleeding all over the bogu gear. (Believe it or not that gear is supposed to stop injuries) I gotta respect that. You showed good martial spirit and didn’t complain. How is your nose by the way? You are one of a small handfull of people (3-4) that could actually hack it the first class. I personally don't think that we train that hard though.
I can’t blame you for the things you posted earlier.........It’s the same sort of stuff I have seen in Japan for the last 16 years.....I just feel sorry for the folks that not knowing better waste time, money and sweat in some dojo that they think is teaching something of use only to find out months or even years later, sometimes the hard way, that what they learned was basically a waste of their time and energy. Then go around and tell folks that kata doesn’t mean didlly squat, and karate sucks.
I have to agree most of what I see in so called "traditional" schools does suck and is a waste of time. Hopefully over time things will change.

 

[D.Cobb]

Sorry if any of my earlier comments offended any of you real karateka.

Drag'n, I think Robert would back me on this, if they took offense, then they weren't REAL karateka.

Now I cant wait to get back out to Roberts dojo and learn some kata!

Ahh the sign of a REAL karateka! Eager to learn new things!
artyon:

--Dave

 

[BlackCatBonz]

kudos to robert!
i agree that not many schools understand or even teach proper bunkai of kata.....and if they did i think we would have a lot fewer students out there hating it instead of enjoying their intricacies.

shawn

 

[RRouuselot]

Drag'n, I think Robert would back me on this, if they took offense, then they weren't REAL karateka.

Ahh the sign of a REAL karateka! Eager to learn new things!
artyon:

--Dave

I think what Drag'n did took some real "stones" and showed maturity.
He didn’t just sit at his PC and keep discussing his views about kata and people that do them like most people do......he actually pulled himself away and went looking for what might be the truth. Too many people on these boards get an opinion and never back it up with facts or actions and I think it's because they might fear that what they find might not be what they expected. It's good to see it when someone has the courage to put his ego aside and take an objective look around.

 

[ppko]

I decided to find out once and for all if there was any basis for the arguement for kata practise.After reading some of his posts I figured Robert Rousselot would be the man to see.BOY did he open my eyes!
Kata movements which are usually refered to as blocks or silly looking strikes turned out to be joint attacks/atemi waza/takedowns/chokes/even submission! All practised in a realistic mannor, and then used effectively(on me)in a full contact freesparing situation.I was very impressed.Those of you who practise these kind of no nonsense SD skills from your kata have my utmost respect.
Sorry if any of my earlier comments offended any of you real karateka.But you cant blame me really eh? After all much of what I said still applies to probably 90% of the dojos around.
Its sad that there are so many BS systems and teachers out there giving real Martial artists a poor image.
Now I cant wait to get back out to Roberts dojo and learn some kata!

I find this to be very admirable, while me and Rob do not get along I believe we both are striving for the same thing. I am glad that you can now see what smoe of us have seen and I hope that you continue on this path:ultracool