Bad mouthing Kata, and other martial arts training methods

[RRouuselot]

I find this to be very admirable, while me and Rob do not get along I believe we both are striving for the same thing. I am glad that you can now see what smoe of us have seen and I hope that you continue on this path:ultracool

Joe,

No offense but actually after reading some of the stuff you write and seeing your gross lack of knowledge(1) on certain concepts and techniques concerning kyusho/atemi/MA in general you are the exact type of dojo I would suggest he avoid. (No touch KO's, Kiai jutsu??? )
After reading some of the drivel you put up on most of the boards I belong to I seriously doubt (no matter how much you would like think) that we are "striving for the same thing".

1) You couldn't tell, among other things, me the difference between atemi and kyusho.....sort of a fundamental thing to know if you are truly studying these arts.

 

[D.Cobb]

1) You couldn't tell, among other things, me the difference between atemi and kyusho.....sort of a fundamental thing to know if you are truly studying these arts.

Oh Robert, you know, I am truly suprised at how many people, really don't know the answer to this. I figure it's ok, if you aren't involved in the kind of school that claims to use either one, but if you're spouting the terms, then like you, I think people, should know what they spoutin'.

Of course though, it can be just like kata. Senseii teaches "a = x", and from now on until taught otherwise, a will always = x

--Dave

 

[ppko]

Joe,

No offense but actually after reading some of the stuff you write and seeing your gross lack of knowledge(1) on certain concepts and techniques concerning kyusho/atemi/MA in general you are the exact type of dojo I would suggest he avoid. (No touch KO's, Kiai jutsu??? )
After reading some of the drivel you put up on most of the boards I belong to I seriously doubt (no matter how much you would like think) that we are "striving for the same thing".

1) You couldn't tell, among other things, me the difference between atemi and kyusho.....sort of a fundamental thing to know if you are truly studying these arts.

How can I not take offense, have I ever once stated that I can do the no touch kos, no I also do not teach them. I do teach some kiai jitsu. But hey, you can just keep studying the way you do and I will keep studying the way I do.

 

[RRouuselot]

How can I not take offense, 1)have I ever once stated that I can do the no touch kos, no I also do not teach them. 2)I do teach some kiai jitsu. But hey, 3)you can just keep studying the way you do and I will keep studying the way I do.

1) No but you have stated your belief in them, condone there teaching, and your teacher, George Dillman seems to put a lot of stock in there worth.

2) Kiai jitsu.........Just as bogus as the no touch KO's

Anytime you guys think No touch Kos and Kiai jitsu, (the word is jutsu BTW) will work under controlled circumstances, meaning not your students being ukes among other things, then I will consider looking into them. Until such time I doubt they work. The mpeg of the "Master" in Chicago that is Dillman student speaks volumes. He could only make it work on his students, he couldn't make it work on anyone that wasn't his student........including a tiny little female news reporter!!! Having said that the fat slob almost fell when trying to deliver a kick......that guy need to seriously get back to the basics of karate and WORK OUT and SWEAT instead of relying on some hocus-pocus crap.

3) Please do.......people will see your no touch KOs and Kiai jitsu and eventually find out how bogus it is then they will get tired of your chop-sockey garbage

 

[grappling_mandala]

Aliveness is aliveness. Most kata practitioners need to practice stillness before they get the full benifit of kata. What kata has to teach is between the lines of the 'stops'. To much modern kata practice is a series of stops. If the essense of every core movement is understood then any kata makes sense. I think the part of kata that people don't often practice is the stillness aspect of it. If they are serious about understanding the essense of the form, they should do this.

Also on the percieved different between 'practice' and 'reality'... If you can't slip someone reaching out to touch your forehead can you slip even a 'fake punch'?
If you can slip a prerehearsed punch, can you slip someone randomly reaching out to touch your forehead?

The misunderstood concept of 'kata' vs. 'practical' I think should be one. With the proper application of progressive resistance and focus of energy any movement is alive. It's about honesty. People who can 'spar' with nothing but 10% featherweight movement and progress from there learn fast. They discover the connection of the whole quicker.

Dave Copeland
Portland, Oregon

 

[RRouuselot]

Aliveness is aliveness. Most kata practitioners need to practice stillness before they get the full benifit of kata. What kata has to teach is between the lines of the 'stops'.
Dave Copeland
Portland, Oregon

I disagree, Kata bunkai is actually a combination of both the movements and the in between the movememnts. Not to mention some of the movements done backwards.....and the in between the movements done backwards.

 

[ppko]

1) No but you have stated your belief in them, condone there teaching, and your teacher, George Dillman seems to put a lot of stock in there worth.

2) Kiai jitsu.........Just as bogus as the no touch KO's

Anytime you guys think No touch Kos and Kiai jitsu, (the word is jutsu BTW) will work under controlled circumstances, meaning not your students being ukes among other things, then I will consider looking into them. Until such time I doubt they work. The mpeg of the "Master" in Chicago that is Dillman student speaks volumes. He could only make it work on his students, he couldn't make it work on anyone that wasn't his student........including a tiny little female news reporter!!! Having said that the fat slob almost fell when trying to deliver a kick......that guy need to seriously get back to the basics of karate and WORK OUT and SWEAT instead of relying on some hocus-pocus crap.

3) Please do.......people will see your no touch KOs and Kiai jitsu and eventually find out how bogus it is then they will get tired of your chop-sockey garbage

The guy in Chicago is no longer with DKI has not been for some time, the only guy in chicago is Dusty Seale. But hey I am not here to argue, I am here to have intelligent conversations with intelligent people so this will be my last reply to you:whip:

 

[Gary Crawford]

Another nice thing that Mr. Dillman has taught us is that as long as you find a sensible application to the kata than you are not wrong, in 1 move their may be as many as 50 different applications (if not more).

PPKO

Since you train under Mr. Dillman,ask him what Bruce Lee told him about kata's if you didn't read his interview in Black Belt.

 

[RRouuselot]

The guy in Chicago is no longer with DKI has not been for some time, the only guy in chicago is Dusty Seale. But hey I am not here to argue, I am here to have intelligent conversations with intelligent people so this will be my last reply to you:whip:

Is/was.......doesn't really matter since he and Dillman both seem to think No Touch KOs work. And as we can see from the MPEG they DON'T!:uhyeah: :bs:

Since you want to have "inteliigent converstation" maybe you could finally answer some of the questions I have asked you in the past regarding kyusho and atemi but chose to run away from.

 

[RRouuselot]

Since you train under Mr. Dillman,ask him what Bruce Lee told him about kata's if you didn't read his interview in Black Belt.

Im curious.......what did he say?

 

[Gary Crawford]

Bruce Lee told George Dillman "I don't need forms.George,you don't need forms.You'll be a good fighter-you're already trained.You needed forms,though,to train you"And he pointed around to some other people and said they would need forms as beginners-to give them the stances,the movements,the motions.the positioning,the strikes.the counters,the kicks.But once you reach a certain level.he though you could stop doing forms and maintain speed,balance and timing.He thought that timing,distance and speed were the total answer.

 

[bignick]

Sounds like something bruce lee would say, considering his philosophies...

 

[RRouuselot]

Bruce Lee told George Dillman "I don't need forms.George,you don't need forms.You'll be a good fighter-you're already trained.You needed forms,though,to train you"And he pointed around to some other people and said they would need forms as beginners-to give them the stances,the movements,the motions.the positioning,the strikes.the counters,the kicks.But once you reach a certain level.he though you could stop doing forms and maintain speed,balance and timing.He thought that timing,distance and speed were the total answer.

Interesting but I can't say as I agree with him......at least not 100% anyway.

 

[rmcrobertson]

In this context, it may be useful to recollect that Mr. Lee died young, in a fashion that may very well have been directly related to his training and practice.

 

[bignick]

true he was young

but he died from an allergic reaction to a prescription medication that wasn't his own...

 

[rmcrobertson]

...and his mastery of the martial arts was such that, it never occurred to him that taking a prescription written for somebody else may have been unwise.

First rule of self-defense: don't die.

 

[D.Cobb]

Bruce Lee told George Dillman "I don't need forms.George,you don't need forms.You'll be a good fighter-you're already trained.You needed forms,though,to train you"And he pointed around to some other people and said they would need forms as beginners-to give them the stances,the movements,the motions.the positioning,the strikes.the counters,the kicks.But once you reach a certain level.he though you could stop doing forms and maintain speed,balance and timing.He thought that timing,distance and speed were the total answer.

And of course he would know exactly what he was talking about...
He trained for what? 4 years in a traditional style that is trained more out of china than with in, and never even got to instructor level. And most of his training was done as a teenager. Most teenagers couldn't create an original thought unless it involved sex or beer, how is an undisciplined street thug going to develop the discipline required to formulate in depth quality theories regarding body mechanics and such like, in between picking fights, running from cops and getting it on with the fairer sex?

I like Bruce Lees movies. I love some of his combat ideas. I don't like the fact that he was full of himself, to the point that in one class, drilling sticky hands with a newbie, the newbie got a lucky one in on the Bruce. Master Lee wasted that sucker, right there in the kwoon.

I have got to tell you, this is not the kind of martial artist that I wish to become. So if it's all the same to you, I'll keep doing katas.
After all, that's where they hide the secrets!!

--Dave

 

[RRouuselot]

Granted Lee was an exceptional athlete in excellent shape. However, after seeing some home videos of Lee that were recently released I have to honestly say my opinion of his skill went way down. They were extremely different than what I saw in his movies where he could have many takes to get it right, good camera angles to make it look more impressive, use slower speed film to make it seem as if he was moving faster......I guess that is what they call "movie magic". There will always be people that say he was “the greatest”, I disagree. The more we find out about some of the “Heros” in martial arts the more we find out just how human they are/were with all the normal flaws the rest of us have.

 

[ppko]

Since you train under Mr. Dillman,ask him what Bruce Lee told him about kata's if you didn't read his interview in Black Belt.

I certainly did read the article, and still have the magazine. I do not train directly under George but with one of his students I have been to many of his seminars and one of his camps hopefully I will be able to attend many more.

 

[RRouuselot]

The guy in Chicago is no longer with DKI has not been for some time, the only guy in chicago is Dusty Seale. But hey I am not here to argue, I am here to have intelligent conversations with intelligent people so this will be my last reply to you:whip:

I see.....so based on this statement are you are saying I am stupid.....alright ....Shall we have a nice intelligent discussion on kyusho and atemi how they differ......how about the differences between TCM and kyusho/atemi.....kata bunkai maybe?????....Chinese language and culture????.......Japanese language and culture????.....Okinawan??? Martial History???...Yeah, I guess only having an I.Q. of 164, training in the martial arts since before you were born makes me too stupid to discuss MAs with you........any time you want to "pony up" and discuss these let me know. I will be more than happy to.:lol: