The value of kata and basics.

[ppko]

2 great post by matt I almost agreed with everything.

The reason I put on my post "learning to fight without fighting" is that you have to picture the different scenerios in your head while doing kata or your kata does you know good. I still practice on others when we do break down.
Everything else I agreed with.

A great post by Ippon Ken except for I will have to agree that it's alright to question kata, but before you question kata you should have more reason than what someone wrote about it.

PPKO

 

[hedgehogey]

Will reply later, but until then, my experience:

6 months Shotokan (everhart)

6 months TKD (DCSDKA)

6 months daito ryu (Quoc dong)

3 years traditional vietnamese (su phoo quoc dong)

2 years muay thai, vo tu do (quoc dong, p cardella)

9 months bjj/vale tudo (relson gracie)

 

[Matt Stone]

Will reply later, but until then, my experience:

6 months Shotokan (everhart)

6 months TKD (DCSDKA)

6 months daito ryu (Quoc dong)

3 years traditional vietnamese (su phoo quoc dong)

2 years muay thai, vo tu do (quoc dong, p cardella)

9 months bjj/vale tudo (relson gracie)

I'd have to say, Hedge, that while that certainly has exposed you to quite a bit, you haven't spent enough time in any one art (other than the Muay Thai) to start really understanding what is going on...

I have been doing Yiliquan for 18 years so far. I did Modern Arnis for a year, and an assortment of other arts for far less than that. The only thing I think I am nearly qualified to speak on is Yili, because it is the only art I have any real time in training.

It may sound like a long time, but it could take 6 months just to learn the basic, beginning interpretations of any given kata. In 6 months, how many kata were you taught or exposed to? Quite a few I'd bet. Of those, how many did you actually really fully understand? None of them, and I'd bet your teacher(s) were either clueless as to their utility, spent little time on kata other than performance and repetition, or saved that kind of training for higher ranked students (which is a damn shame if you ask me).

So I can see your perspective on kata - you see it from the eyes of a student (primarily) of sport oriented arts who rely on non-kata training methodologies to develop skill. No worries. And by saying "sport oriented" I'm not trying to take away from your training at all, just pointing out that sport oriented arts focus on what gets the win, and will replicate that effort if it proves successful.

Thanks for sharing your background.

 

[ppko]

Will reply later, but until then, my experience:

6 months Shotokan (everhart)

6 months TKD (DCSDKA)

6 months daito ryu (Quoc dong)

3 years traditional vietnamese (su phoo quoc dong)

2 years muay thai, vo tu do (quoc dong, p cardella)

9 months bjj/vale tudo (relson gracie)

What does this prove other than you don't stay in an art long enough to truly learn it. I hope that you have found the art that fits you.

PPKO

 

[Ippon Ken]

Will reply later, but until then, my experience:

6 months Shotokan (everhart)

6 months TKD (DCSDKA)

6 months daito ryu (Quoc dong)

3 years traditional vietnamese (su phoo quoc dong)

2 years muay thai, vo tu do (quoc dong, p cardella)

9 months bjj/vale tudo (relson gracie)

This explains everything! I don't have anything against you hedge-hogey. I just don't like the sweeping indictments about classical training I hear from non-yudansha trained karate-ka who go on to fall in love with MMAs. MMAs are great for a lot of things. So are the traditional arts.

I also hear a lot of crap about karate being unsuccessful in the NHB arena. That is ridiculous. Chuck Lidell a Koeikan-ka (Japanese Karate of Shuri Te derivation) and Hawaiian Kempo-ka (4th dan) has waxed quite a few non-traditonalists. He credits his kempo and karate training with giving him his hands and feet and his wrestling and BJJ training with giving him his decent ground game. When asked a couple of times, what about his traditonal training he didn't find applicable to the ring, he never mentioned that his kata made him a bad fighter. In fact, with the exception of Vovchanchyn and Silva, he is definitely the most successful striker in recent NHB history

As a kempo/karate-ka with a lot of success in the NHB format, it shows that the individual and the training involved in a good traditional system can be very positive even in MMAs. Some will say that he learned to box or did kickboxing, and I'd say, yes he did- Japanese karate jiyu kumite and Okinawan-influenced Hawaiian Kempo "kickboxing". Others will say that it was his wrestling background that allowed him to compete at that level. I admit you must know some grappling (especially submission) to do these events. I know of very few martial artists (karate-ka included) who these days who didn't train in Judo, wrestling, BJJ, Sambo or JJJ. At the least, many played American footbal and understand how to tackle someone and take them down.

I bet Chuck had to perform kata during his 4th dan grading in Kempo. I wonder why someone of that caliber, far beyond any JKD stylist ever in MMAs, finds his classical training so valuable?

It just goes to show. If you didn't know now you do.

Also, as an aside, I would agree that Shotokan is a good modern style of Japanese karate. Traditional in the strictest sense, like from Okinawa with no significant dilution, I would say "no". Again, everything is relative and based on what you're exposed to.

The sad truth is that Hedge-Hogey is right about most karate and MAs in general being ineffectual for fighting, and just a pale representation of what it was intended to be. In those instances all the kata training in the world without proper analysis and application is what Matsumura coined as "Budo of Nominals" or "Budo of Intellect". One is concerned with looking good, competing and often bringing shame (to family, style and self) and unneeded injury on the practitioner. The other is concerned with a lot of talk with no sound theory and just going through the motions, "like dancers in the Royal Court". These styles are a waste of time. What the good student should be training in is the "Budo of Bujutsu", if you want to understand "original intent".

Your intent is another thing entirely.

Kata, kata, kata...

 

[hedgehogey]

Christ this is a lot to respond to, and i've got limited time:

Boxers and wrestlers doing kata: Never seen it before. Once again, I define a kata as a prearranged pattern of seven or more strikes, usually done in the air. There isn't a boxer or wrestler in the world who does that. They do shadowboxing/wrestling but NEVER in that kind of sequence. I have several of lebells books, and see nothing in there that could be called kata. Lebell trains alive. He's a wrestler and judoka, for god's sake.
A favorite combo is NOT a kata and should never be confused with a dead pattern.

My experience: Is everyone not noticing the 3 years traditional vietnamese styles? They're all kata based, and I was taught numerous applications for each one, but it didn't help my fighting ability one bit.

On kata taking years to be effective: What use is something for fighting if it takes over ten years to become competent at it?

To those who say i'm lazy: Screw you. I wasted hundreds of hours on traditional styles. I think i've earned the right to criticize. I was a LIVE IN STUDENT.

On kata as a starting point: You don't need to start with a dead pattern. You can train alive from the first day. You don't need to get tossed in the deep end everytime, but you can start your first swimming lesson in the water.

Ippon ken: We're still here. We'll be here a long time.

By the way, what makes what YOU do so special, anyway? You keep going on about "real karate" but you never tell us what's unique about it that makes you the invincible giant killer you are. So tell us, what training methods does your "real karate" use? What are some typical techniques?

 

[The Kai]

Some iai-jitsu katas are only 3 steps (basically), so a kata would be anything at 3 or more prearranged steps?

 

[rmcrobertson]

Ah. So Mr. Le Bell didn't write what he wrote, and his books have no pre-arranged techniques in them.

All anybody's saying, as far as I can see, is that kata/forms, techniques, and all the rest will be dead if you kill them. And so will the, "style of no style," practice, the "vale tudo," and all the rest...dead as a doornail, without good students and good instructors.

Oh, and some of us are saying that martial arts may teach more than how to beat people up--though before you start in, martial arts had better teach that as a base for eveything else.

By the way, it wouldn't surprise me if a few years from now, you discovered that those wasted, "hundreds of hours," taught you a lot more than you think.

Not that, "hundreds of hours," impresses me.

 

[Makalakumu]

By the way, it wouldn't surprise me if a few years from now, you discovered that those wasted, "hundreds of hours," taught you a lot more than you think.

Not that, "hundreds of hours," impresses me.

999 hours / 24 hours/day = 41.625 days. Not enough to have even earned a white belt.

 

[ppko]

Hedgehogey,
You really haven't stayed in one art long enough to make a decision about kata, even if you practice just self defense techniques do you not do the same thing over and over to learn the techniques, that is a kata no matter how you want to look at it you do a kata everyday you train. Sure it may not be the same kata that shotokan does or another art but it is a kata. And a punch doesn't have to be a punch it can be anything.

PPKO

 

[kenpo tiger]

But to answer your question I believe that you should teach openly but still hold back some stuff for your higher ranking students and even more for just yourself at least until you pass on your school to someone else.
PPKO

Why?

 

[kenpo tiger]

On kata taking years to be effective: What use is something for fighting if it takes over ten years to become competent at it?

To those who say i'm lazy: ... I wasted hundreds of hours on traditional styles. I think i've earned the right to criticize. I was a LIVE IN STUDENT.

Hedgey - you assume we all do ma in order to become fighters. There are brawlers and there are fighters. Brawlers have no technique to speak of and rely on brute strength and intimidation. Fighters fight with technique and think about what they are doing many 'moves' ahead, as in a chess game. In my opinion, that's why it takes time to become a fighter, assuming that's what you want out of your ma training.

I didn't read anything saying you were lazy.

As to your having been a live-in student, most of us haven't had and will never have the opportunity to do so. Can you tell us a little about it? I can't imagine a better opportunity to train than that if you are a serious student.
Thanks for your viewpoint. KT:asian:

 

[hedgehogey]

Rmcrobertson: I'm not saying there's anything wrong with drilling a technique. What i'm saying is that doing a prearranged sequence of five or more techniques in the air or with a nonresisting, in place attacker won't help your fighting.

PPKO: Christ you're being obnoxious and patronizing. If i've studied something for THREE YEARS and I find it lacking I damn well can and will criticize it! If you can't use something to defend yourself after three years, what the hell kindof use is it?

And no, I do not do kata. I never do long sequences of prearranged kata. The drilling we do in bjj is NOT kata. In fact it's as much sparring as it is drilling.

do you not do the same thing over and over to learn the techniques

No. When I learn a new technique I spend maybe fifteen minutes drilling it without resistance, then fifteen minutes with resistance and my partner trying to counter. After that it's time for sparring, and i'll apply that technique if I see the opportunity. I think other BJJers on this forum would agree with me.

I find it funny that the same people who say "Sportfighting doesn't work for teh str33t!" without ever having gone to a sportfighting gym are the same people who say "Only after XX number of years can you apply the kata in the ______ system, but when you do you cause the seas to part and pharao's army to shudder beneath your weight."

 

[ppko]

Why?

Well I believe that their are certain things that shouldn't be taught until a certain rank or maturity has been reached, and you should always try to improve on things but until you have perfected it to where you can do it smoothly you shouldn't try teaching it to anyone but maybe work it on your higher students.

PPKO

 

[ppko]

Rmcrobertson: I'm not saying there's anything wrong with drilling a technique. What i'm saying is that doing a prearranged sequence of five or more techniques in the air or with a nonresisting, in place attacker won't help your fighting.

PPKO: Christ you're being obnoxious and patronizing. If i've studied something for THREE YEARS and I find it lacking I damn well can and will criticize it! If you can't use something to defend yourself after three years, what the hell kindof use is it?

And no, I do not do kata. I never do long sequences of prearranged kata. The drilling we do in bjj is NOT kata. In fact it's as much sparring as it is drilling.



No. When I learn a new technique I spend maybe fifteen minutes drilling it without resistance, then fifteen minutes with resistance and my partner trying to counter. After that it's time for sparring, and i'll apply that technique if I see the opportunity. I think other BJJers on this forum would agree with me.

I find it funny that the same people who say "Sportfighting doesn't work for teh str33t!" without ever having gone to a sportfighting gym are the same people who say "Only after XX number of years can you apply the kata in the ______ system, but when you do you cause the seas to part and pharao's
army to shudder beneath your weight."

Three years is nothing granted I have not been in the Martial Arts for very long but I have been in for 10 years, and there are many people out there that have been doing it 20,30,40.... so your three years are nothing compaired to what others have done. Yes what you do is kata like it or not. Yes I have fought NHB so don't patronize me about sportfighting I have fought in the Ruff Man several times but I have not done it for many years. The reason why is because it is not street but a sport, there are no friends out there to kick your head in, no chance of weapons..... do you want me to go on. I have no problem with how you train or who you train with but don't try and come in a forum like this and talk about kata being crap.

PPKO

 

[kenpo tiger]

Well I believe that their are certain things that shouldn't be taught until a certain rank or maturity has been reached, and you should always try to improve on things but until you have perfected it to where you can do it smoothly you shouldn't try teaching it to anyone but maybe work it on your higher students.

PPKO

Okay. I thought you were going with the whole master-hold-things-for-himself-and-no one else mindset.

Short answer: I agree with you.

Thanks for the clarification.:asian: KT

 

[rmcrobertson]

There's no reason anybody SHOULD'T get on a forum and attack kata, forms, sets, or anything else. It's healthy to do so, in fact.

However, he's still way wrong. I'm sure this'll draw the usual response, but "hundreds of hours," and "three years in a style," is certainly enough to criticize--hell, in some cases five minutes ought to make one wonder--but not nearly enough to launch a blanket attack on everything else everybody else is doing.

Particularly when one is simply repeating the same old same old, dead and tired cliches that have become so popular after Bruce Lee died.

He's dead wrong, too, about kata doing nothing for fighting, as he'd know if he knew much about, say, Short 3 in American kenpo--which, before ya go off, yes I have practiced in very different ways, environments, etc., and with people attacking me. Not enough, of course, but nobody--including you, "hedgehog"--ever practices enough.

I could tell you that not everybody is way aggressive, or I could tell you that most students need ways to work through their issues. I could tell you that forms help teach stance, rhythm, marriage of gravity, strikes, angles, range, and a zillion other fairly important things. I could tell you that they help keep alive--yes, alive--all sorts of things that might otherwise get lost out of the vocab of martial arts. I could tell you that forms allow students and instructors to take a running inventory of where they're at.

I could tell you a zillion things about forms, and you won't listen. You "just want to bang," right? Just to, "fight," right? You think all those Chinese men and women were just idjits, right? Funakoshi, Ueshiba, tired old farts who never had to really fight, right? Mr. Parker stuck all kinds of forms and sets into kenpo--so what? So what if Frank Trejo used to go out and win sparring and forms and tournaments--means nothing, right? I could tell you that one of the few things that gives me a prayer against some of the beasts I have to work out with--yes, and spar with--is what I've learned from forms and sets...no effect, right? I must be mistaken, or fighting weenies. hell, I could tell you about some students...nope, not that either.

You're going down a particular path, and that's fine. So are some of us. I think it's a better path, a wider path, a longer path, but what the hell.

 

[MJS]

Its really amazing as to how many different threads get started about kata. IMO, I think that we've really beat this topic to death guys! No matter what anyone says, no matter what anyone does, it should be very apparent, especially by now, that nobodies thoughts or training methods are going to be changed. We can talk about aliveness, resistance and kata until we turn blue, but that still is NOT going to change anyones thinking!!!!!

As I've said probably 100 times already, we all train for different reasons. Some people train for SD, some for self control, weight loss, something to do after work/school, some for MMA/NHB matches, etc. That being said, all of those people are going to have different training methods. Robert has stated countless times that he has no interest in cage fighting or street fighting, and thats perfectly fine and I can respect that. Therefore, he sees many benefits of doing kata. Those that are interested in MMA are never going to see a value of kata, and I can respect that too.

The point of all of this....who the hell cares how anyone else trains? Rather than being so concerned with what everyone else is doing, maybe we should spend more time concentrating on what we want to do!!!!!

Mike

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

At this time, I have only one thing to say about this (good) old debate:

:deadhorse

 

[Matt Stone]

Hedgehogey,
You really haven't stayed in one art long enough to make a decision about kata

Well, 3 years would be enough to form an opinion, especially if he was a "live in" student as he claims (though that isn't a common standard by which to measure time in training). As far as the other arts, however, a few months here, a few months there... Not enough. If you figure an average of 3 - 4 times a week, an hour per class, that'd be around 16 hours per month, 32 hours in two months, 48 in three months... Not much time, really.

even if you practice just self defense techniques do you not do the same thing over and over to learn the techniques,

All arts do, even the ones that appear to claim they don't. I trained with a Bujinkan student once who tried (in vain) to show me how they actually don't practice any actual techniques. Needless to say, he couldn't actually do anything beyond move around looking ninja-like.

In order to perfect a movement, to develop proficiency in a technique, it must be repeated. Of course Hedge repeats movements and techniques. The range he has access to, like the rest of humankind, is finite. The rules of biophysics are the same for him and everyone else. To develop physical skill, the movement must be repeated to ingrain it into the neural network.

that is a kata no matter how you want to look at it you do a kata everyday you train. Sure it may not be the same kata that shotokan does or another art but it is a kata.

I think one of the main issues is defining what is and is not kata. Hedge says 7 movements or more. Kai pointed out that some iaijutsu kata are only 3 movements long. I'd point out that the commencement movements of some forms are longer than 3 movements long!

Perhaps we should agree on some definitions before continuing with the argument/debate? What constitutes "a technique," what constitutes "a combination," and what constitutes "a kata" or "a form."

I'd submit that a technique is one single strike, kick, joint lock, throw, etc., without entry modifications. I'd submit that a combination is one or more techniques linked together, whether intended for use against one opponent or multiple opponents. I'd submit that a kata is a series of techniques or combinations linked together in such a manner that they become a standard method of practice in order to communicate specific lessons, or specific application of the said techniques or combinations. There is no upper limit to a form, though at a minimum it should be at least two techniques or one comination.

Rmcrobertson: I'm not saying there's anything wrong with drilling a technique. What i'm saying is that doing a prearranged sequence of five or more techniques in the air or with a nonresisting, in place attacker won't help your fighting.

So what is the limit, in your training, to the number of techniques in a combination? I've been taught, both for fighting and for competition, to become accustomed to throwing techniques non-stop... In fighting, if you train a 1-2-3 combination, you'll stop at 3 whether your opponent is neutralized or not. In competition, you can control your opponent's movement by throwing technique after technique, dominating your opponent's defense...

hrist you're being obnoxious and patronizing. If i've studied something for THREE YEARS and I find it lacking I damn well can and will criticize it! If you can't use something to defend yourself after three years, what the hell kindof use is it?

I'd have to agree... If a person is unable to employ at least some of what is being taught within the first few months, there doesn't seem to be much use in training that art. Most folks today (and I'd think that all folks once upon a time) didn't have decades to become proficient fighters... When I trained in Arnis, one of the things I liked (and still like) about it was that it was almost immediately useable. Very little time required to be able to employ what was taught (though "mastery," whatever that is, would certainly take much longer).

I do not do kata. I never do long sequences of prearranged kata. The drilling we do in bjj is NOT kata. In fact it's as much sparring as it is drilling.

I don't think anyone said that a person has to train forms to be a good fighter. I think the only thing that has been debated is the utility of forms practice to someone who has an interest in that kind of training.

Also, given the nature of ground fighting, it is more difficult to translate those kinds of techniques into a solo routine, but it isn't impossible. Start from the mount without an opponent, do an arm trap, "roll" your opponent into a rear mount, do a RNC. Now you have a ground fighting kata.

When I learn a new technique I spend maybe fifteen minutes drilling it without resistance, then fifteen minutes with resistance and my partner trying to counter. After that it's time for sparring, and i'll apply that technique if I see the opportunity. I think other BJJers on this forum would agree with me.

So you never, ever, repeat a technique outside of that initial 15 minutes, and then only in sparring "if you see the opportunity?" I'd say that your understanding of the technique is far too shallow after such a short time of training it... "Mastery is made of little things," and it is the little things borne of experience with any given thing is what defines an expert from a beginner.

I find it funny that the same people who say "Sportfighting doesn't work for teh str33t!" without ever having gone to a sportfighting gym are the same people who say "Only after XX number of years can you apply the kata in the ______ system, but when you do you cause the seas to part and pharao's army to shudder beneath your weight."

Well, I for one have never said that "sportfighting" won't work in the str33t (gotta love the Bullshido alumni! Bullshido ROCKS!). I've said that "sportfighting" isn't the end all/be all that some folks believe it to be. No single art is (though some are more complete than others).

Well I believe that their are certain things that shouldn't be taught until a certain rank or maturity has been reached

But who says any particular teacher is qualified to make that judgement? I've run into a far larger number of instructors with serious ego issues than I have genuinely humble and courteous teachers who have the student's best interests at heart... My own teacher, who I trust implicitly (and who is like a second father to me) teaches us absolutely everything and holds nothing back. As I've said before, if a student really isn't "worthy," then they won't put the effort out to train a particular technique (that you think requires maturity) well enough to be able to use/misuse it in the first place.

I think this is an antiquated ideal, one that is enforced and employed by teachers who want to think of themselves as more than what they are. Dave Lowry wrote a great article about this in Black Belt a few years back, and he encouraged teachers to remember what they were teachers of (martial arts, not life). They are no more qualified to direct someone else's life than anyone else...