The Roots of MMA & Potential Link to Wing Chun

[Charlemagne]

Post #2 on this thread. I think the author of that article and his followers are the "some" that NI was referring to.

Thanks for the clarification. Cheers,

 

[Nobody Important]

Huh? Loyalty was a strictly enforced tradition.Ask any Chinese. Southern Mantis teachers didn't like students coming in and showing Hung Ga moves. In this case the reprimand would have been more severe if they performed boxing moves during class.

Maybe after 1911, but certainly not before. Prior to and shortly after the Boxer Rebellion the Zhong Yi, Jing Wu & Hong Men associations were teaching numerous styles side by side. These organization were responsible for popularizing the martial arts and from them came many new systems, all through exchange.

 

[Nobody Important]

there is no link to WC. imagination at best.
the entire article forgets history before america even existed.
View attachment 20871
"boxer at rest"
330 to 50 BCE

You may be right, but it's not implausible. If Boxing came from Greece as historians suggest then it would have been known to Alexander the Great. He was known to have instructed his troops in Pankration. The legend of Vajramushti states it was created from a mix of Indian Kalaripayettu and Greek Pankration. The two cultures shared much, there is even a Greek form of Buddhism. Vajramushti is said to be the system that was taught to the Chinese when Buddhism was introduced. Supposedly this was a major influence on the development of Shaolin martial arts, if so, then that's one possible link. Is it true? Who knows and it doesn't really matter but is interesting nonetheless.

 

[Nobody Important]

Fun Wikipedia article on Boxing in China.

Boxing in China - Wikipedia

 

[Martial D]

It's only logical. Students of combat are more likely than others to study and draw from past students of combat. It's all interrelated to various degrees, and I would imagine chasing all those links down would be impossible without an ouiji board or a sayonce.

 

[Juany118]

Here's an interesting article on Old Style Boxing as it was prior to later rule sets & use of mufflers.

James Figg: The Lost Origins of the Sport of Mixed Martial Arts

Some suggest that this method was what also inspired the Chinese to create Wing Chun.

Regardless of belief, it's hard to deny the similarities. Cudgel, sword & fisticuffs ( that included, wrasslin, hurling, gouging & purring).

Naive, IMO, to think that Western martial arts were lacking sophisticated techniques & theory and that it didn't, in any way, potentially influence Asian martial arts. There are abundant old accounts of matches between east and west during the time of colonialism. Interesting stuff, no matter what you believe.

True but one has to be careful, when speaking about different cultures coming into contact with one another, that one does not fall into the mental trap born of the "white man's burden."

Also one has to look at the culture of China during that period. The Nation which was once arguably the most innovative in the world had gone unchanged for centuries because of a sense of cultural superiority and then the more technologically advanced West coming in and forcing the doors of trade open at the point of a gun created what could have only been called rampant Xenophobia. Heck YM himself reportedly had misgivings of teaching Bruce Lee because he was only half Chinese and he only wore a suit for his Hong Kong ID card picture, which he had to borrow from a student because he had much disdain for the West.

So even though the contact occurred, it is as much a leap to say Western methods were adopted as it is to categorically say they were not adopted.

 

[Nobody Important]

True but one has to be careful, when speaking about different cultures coming into contact with one another, that one does not fall into the mental trap born of the "white man's burden."

Also one has to look at the culture of China during that period. The Nation which was once arguably the most innovative in the world had gone unchanged for centuries because of a sense of cultural superiority and then the more technologically advanced West coming in and forcing the doors of trade open at the point of a gun created what could have only been called rampant Xenophobia. Heck YM himself reportedly had misgivings of teaching Bruce Lee because he was only half Chinese and he only wore a suit for his Hong Kong ID card picture, which he had to borrow from a student because he had much disdain for the West.

So even though the contact occurred, it is as much a leap to say Western methods were adopted as it is to categorically say they were not adopted.

You have a valid point, and it is something that still exists today. However, I would surmise that prior to things turning sour before the Boxer Rebellion there was a fair amount of consensual cultural exchange. Many Chinese went to England in the early days of contact, hard to say what aspects of English culture they brought back with them.

Then there is the Japanese. Jigoro Kano exploited the opening of Japan to the west to promote Judo. There are many accounts of western sailors having boxing & wrestling matches with Japanese fighters. I'm sure their was some exchanging of methods going on, naive to think the Chinese didn't do the same.

Of course it's all speculation and conjecture, none of it can be proven, but interesting to ponder nonetheless.

 

[karatejj]

there is no link to WC. imagination at best.
the entire article forgets history before america even existed.
View attachment 20871
"boxer at rest"
330 to 50 BCE

Truth!

Its just people seeing smthing that looks a bit the same, but no understand of how it works! All surface level knowlege if u think this is deep theory

 

[karatejj]

Then there is the Japanese. Jigoro Kano exploited the opening of Japan to the west to promote Judo. There are many accounts of western sailors having boxing & wrestling matches with Japanese fighters. I'm sure their was some exchanging of methods going on, naive to think the Chinese didn't do the same.

Of course it's all speculation and conjecture, none of it can be proven, but interesting to ponder nonetheless.

Sound like standard catch wrestling inferior complex guys always showing on mma boards back in 2003, lol

Most people gru out of that tho...

 

[Nobody Important]

Sound like standard catch wrestling inferior complex guys always showing on mma boards back in 2003, lol

Most people gru out of that tho...

Plenty of historical accounts are available of such interaction, investigate for yourself if you would like to know more.

I'm not making any claims, just putting some information out there about western martial arts having an impact on eastern methods.

Here's another article

Espada y Daga: Western Fencing’s Foremost Influence on the FMA

 

[karatejj]

Plenty of historical accounts are available of such interaction, investigate for yourself if you would like to know more.

I'm not making any claims, just putting some information out there about western martial arts having an impact on eastern methods.

Here's another article

Espada y Daga: Western Fencing’s Foremost Influence on the FMA

Lol biased opinion off the net from angry loozers is not info

Im not a lover of rolling on teh floor wrestling guys, but pretty obvius that catch wrestling is just a hobby horse for buthurt sad old guys

 

[Nobody Important]

Lol biased opinion off the net from angry loozers is not info

Im not a lover of rolling on teh floor wrestling guys, but pretty obvius that catch wrestling is just a hobby horse for buthurt sad old guys

Catch as Catch Can wrestling has a long history, one based off of traditional methods like Lancanshire, Westmoreland & Devonshire, and it had a profound influence on bothJapanese & American pro wrestling. As to its efficacy, I don't know. It's something that has a complex evolution.

Anyways, not really the point of this thread. Seems you're the only one getting butthurt and insisting that Western culture has had absolutely no effect on Eastern culture, even though they have embraced nearly every aspect of Western society with open arms.

 

[Juany118]

Plenty of historical accounts are available of such interaction, investigate for yourself if you would like to know more.

I'm not making any claims, just putting some information out there about western martial arts having an impact on eastern methods.

Here's another article

Espada y Daga: Western Fencing’s Foremost Influence on the FMA

I don't think northern FMA (the south is tied closer to Silat methods is the same though. There are two working theories as to how Espada y Daga. Your article sorta touches on them. However I would say that the idea that it came down from Filipino "nobles" being taught fencing at a Spanish School is not accurate. FMA has always be a very "common" art. So common actually that some people in the Philippines complain how foreign arts are more popular and how the greatest FMA master's are typically poor and to overcome the poverty they actually had to go outside the country. I once heard it described as "Tae Kwon Do and Boxing are taught in modern air conditioned buildings, FMA is taught in back yard and parks because there is a prejudice in the culture that the foreign arts are 'better'."

As for the things that were close...

1. That the Spanish colonial power actively taught the technique to help the locals aid them in fighting off Pirates from Mindanao.
2. That it was adapted simply by fighting against the Spanish. Espada y Daga wasn't strictly limited to rapier fencing of the late 16th century onward. In "old" Spanish sword, they taught using sword and buckler as well as sword and dagger. This eventually became called simply esgrima (aka fencing, swordsmanship), esgrima antigua ( old fencing), esgrima vulgar (vulgar fencing.). The fencing the expert in your article seems to reference is what is sometimes called "true fencing". The authors who wrote of this at the end of the 16th century referred to it as last verdadera destreza (or true skill)

I find the first one a bit off because the Spanish passed laws against the Filipinos practicing FMA.

So the next possible option is simply the Filipino people studying their colonial master's methods and gaining inspiration. While the use of a sword and dagger together seems is more similar to esgrima antigua while there is a notable difference. First the purpose of the weapons is reversed. In European swordsmanship the dagger is used most often to parry and, if designed to do so for "true" fencing, to trap or even break/bend the opponents blade, the sword to attack. In Espada y Daga the roles are reversed because Filipino knives weren't designed with the large guards necessary to make them a good defensive weapon.

Even accounting for this difference though the method would actually be related to the swordsmanship of soldiers of the period. There are two books I know of (but have never read) regarding esgrima antigua that were written in 1474. Here is a link referencing one, sadly they are lost to history... Pedro de la Torre ~ Wiktenauer ~☞ Insquequo omnes gratuiti fiunt

What is my point here? That there is a difference between a centuries long insurgency adopting methods of their conquerors vs the dynamic that existed in China. Again I am not saying that it didn't happen, I just don't think FMA and CMA are apples to apples comparison here.

 

[Nobody Important]

I don't think northern FMA (the south is tied closer to Silat methods is the same though. There are two working theories as to how Espada y Daga. Your article sorta touches on them. However I would say that the idea that it came down from Filipino "nobles" being taught fencing at a Spanish School is not accurate. FMA has always be a very "common" art. So common actually that some people in the Philippines complain how foreign arts are more popular and how the greatest FMA master's are typically poor and to overcome the poverty they actually had to go outside the country. I once heard it described as "Tae Kwon Do and Boxing are taught in modern air conditioned buildings, FMA is taught in back yard and parks because there is a prejudice in the culture that the foreign arts are 'better'."

As for the things that were close...

1. That the Spanish colonial power actively taught the technique to help the locals aid them in fighting off Pirates from Mindanao.
2. That it was adapted simply by fighting against the Spanish. Espada y Daga wasn't strictly limited to rapier fencing of the late 16th century onward. In "old" Spanish sword, they taught using sword and buckler as well as sword and dagger. This eventually became called simply esgrima (aka fencing, swordsmanship), esgrima antigua ( old fencing), esgrima vulgar (vulgar fencing.). The fencing the expert in your article seems to reference is what is sometimes called "true fencing". The authors who wrote of this at the end of the 16th century referred to it as last verdadera destreza (or true skill)

I find the first one a bit off because the Spanish passed laws against the Filipinos practicing FMA.

So the next possible option is simply the Filipino people studying their colonial master's methods and gaining inspiration. While the use of a sword and dagger together seems is more similar to esgrima antigua while there is a notable difference. First the purpose of the weapons is reversed. In European swordsmanship the dagger is used most often to parry and, if designed to do so for "true" fencing, to trap or even break/bend the opponents blade, the sword to attack. In Espada y Daga the roles are reversed because Filipino knives weren't designed with the large guards necessary to make them a good defensive weapon.

Even accounting for this difference though the method would actually be related to the swordsmanship of soldiers of the period. There are two books I know of (but have never read) regarding esgrima antigua that were written in 1474. Here is a link referencing one, sadly they are lost to history... Pedro de la Torre ~ Wiktenauer ~☞ Insquequo omnes gratuiti fiunt

What is my point here? That there is a difference between a centuries long insurgency adopting methods of their conquerors vs the dynamic that existed in China. Again I am not saying that it didn't happen, I just don't think FMA and CMA are apples to apples comparison here.

I don't practice FMA and don't know much about the history. There is one undeniable fact though, the Moderization of Asia. Western culture has influenced the political structures, industries, militaries, religions, customs, philosophies, foods, sciences and arts of all Asian cultures to one extent or another, in some cases to extreme measures. Whether this is good or bad is irrelevant, it simply goes to show that Western culture's impact on Asian culture is more significant than vice versa. To assume that all other aspects of Asian culture have been impacted except martial arts is rediculous.

 

[KPM]

^^^^Watch out man! You're talking common sense! And, as we've recently discovered here in other threads....common sense isn't always "common."

 

[Nobody Important]

Interesting essay on Western society's impact on Japan & China, a big part of which was caused by the vast differences in the military.

China and Japan's Responses to the West in the 19th Century

 

[Juany118]

I don't practice FMA and don't know much about the history. There is one undeniable fact though, the Moderization of Asia. Western culture has influenced the political structures, industrialization, religions, customs, philosophies, foods, sciences and arts of all Asian cultures to one extent or another, in some cases to extreme measures. Whether this is good or bad is irrelevant, it simply goes to show that Western culture's impact on Asian culture is more significant than vice versa. To assume that all other aspects of Asian culture have been impacted except martial arts is rediculous.

All agreed there's a lot of influence but sometimes the influence can be the opposite of what one might think. I have actually been talking about this, in a non-issue arts context. My girlfriend has a Master's in Anthropology and ran an NGOs mission in East Africa for about a decade. She pointed out to me that there are three general ways the influence of a "colonial" or militarily victorious culture effects other cultures.

1.You can have them adopt cultural elements of the "new"
2. double down on their native culture
3. a combination of the two.

Which is actually at play takes a fair amount of work of the type that paid for her graduate school then and banked more to pay for the new Master's. Dang woman loves school more than work lol.

Point being in terms of martial arts you can't just use appearance because as usual biomechanics is biomechanics. You really need to get down into the detailed academic work and that kind of research is time-consuming as all hell.

 

[Tez3]

Lol biased opinion off the net from angry loozers is not info

Im not a lover of rolling on teh floor wrestling guys, but pretty obvius that catch wrestling is just a hobby horse for buthurt sad old guys

Is English your first language or can you be childish in other languages as well?

 

[karatejj]

Catch as Catch Can wrestling has a long history, one based off of traditional methods like Lancanshire, Westmoreland & Devonshire, and it had a profound influence on bothJapanese & American pro wrestling. As to its efficacy, I don't know. It's something that has a complex evolution.

Its fake! Like pro wrasslin

Anyways, not really the point of this thread. Seems you're the only one getting butthurt and insisting that Western culture has had absolutely no effect on Eastern culture, even though they have embraced nearly every aspect of Western society with open arms.

Just sayin that idea boxing an wing chun are related is based off basic similar look of old days boxin to WC. Not any real info. Just guyz hopin for smthing they can feel big-hed and look down on otherz.

It not history document, just guyz writin what tey feel and hope. Therez a guy does some history on WC but forgot his name now. You will need ur readin glasses tho, lol

 

[Nobody Important]

Its fake! Like pro wrasslin


Just sayin that idea boxing an wing chun are related is based off basic similar look of old days boxin to WC. Not any real info. Just guyz hopin for smthing they can feel big-hed and look down on otherz.

It not history document, just guyz writin what tey feel and hope. Therez a guy does some history on WC but forgot his name now. You will need ur readin glasses tho, lol

It has a checkered past, especially during the era it was competing with boxing for a fan base. I wouldn't call guys like Frank Gotch fake though.

Here an article on the history of Catch Wrestling.

History of Catch Wrestling | SnakePit USA Catch as Catch Can

These methods, along with the French created Greco-Roman method are what later became part of the high school and college wrestling pantheon. The method cannot solely be judged by the offshoot entertainment faction.

As for the rest of your comment, I do not believe that the world is flat, that the Sun revolves around the Earth, that evolution is a complete myth, that religion is truth or that societies have never been conquered or interacted with one another, sharing ideas, throughout the entirety of human history.

Feel free to believe that everything was created spontaneously out of a vacuum. I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I'm sure you can form your own conclusions, I'm just presenting information to invoke thought and create talking points. Do with it what you like.