The Resurgence of Traditional Martial Arts in Modern Mixed Martial Arts

[Sammy Naur]

What do you mean by 'fighting application'?

Two men enter, one man leaves.

Again, this is a weird question for someone to ask.

Any Judo experience? Wrestling in general? I'm really just to gauge what you know beyond Korean folk wrestling, which an obscure selection to defend your ideas of Asia folk wrestling, to be honest.

How familiar are you with Mongolian wrestling?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

"What do you mean by 'fighting application'?

Old definition - knock down, or take down.
New definition - knock down, or take down and then knock/choke out.

 

[windwalker099]

Two men enter, one man leaves.

What happened to the one who didn't leave ?

1. died
2. was injured
3. lost
4. didn't fight

Again, this is a weird question for someone to ask.

Any Judo experience? Wrestling in general? I'm really just to gauge what you know beyond Korean folk wrestling, which an obscure selection to defend your ideas of Asia folk wrestling, to be honest.

How familiar are you with Mongolian wrestling?

How familiar are you ?

As you asked me, "what's your experience in MMA Ssireum ?

still waiting, have you any experience with it ?

My experience with what you mentioned comes from practitioners attempting to apply their methods against me.
In the case of Ssireum, my base style was Mantis.
I adapted to their setup and rule set at the time—
maybe mid 80s if memory serves me during the fielding of the MLRS systems to Korea.

kind of a funny story.

It happened during a live-fire missile exercise in Korea. Some of my soldiers were watching the ROKs going at it, laughing at them. I suggested that if they found it so funny, they should give it a try.

They countered by asking, ‘Why don’t you?’

As NCOIC in charge, lead by example part of leadership,,
not much of a choice.

Got thrown 2 out of 3 times. Good experience.

For Judo, Sambo, and Shuai Jiao, my base was Taiji.
Many of their approaches are similar to what is practiced in push hands.
The Shuai Jjiao, was interesting, as the teacher at the time, told me he wanted to his "vibration power " "Dou Jin" (抖劲).
but didn't want to hurt me...

Maybe, ya never know...most of the testing informal as in lets see what you would do if I did this or that ect..

The "testing" always on going....

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I also believe that the TMA "tie - spring one leg and get the other leg" will be used in MMA ring soon or later.

I'm sure it has already been used. I teach a variation of that move which I use both in grappling and MMA sparring. I've seen plenty of other people teach the combo as well, so I'm sure it's been used in the cage. I just can't remember a particular fight to pull up the video from.

BTW, the main difference with the version I use is that I would usually do it from an underhook. In your example, the person doing the technique has already used an arm drag to get to the back. If I get that far, then I would rather solidify my back control and work from there, because it gives some better options.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Sorry to downvote you, but I have not seen a single person in the this thread dump on TMA.

What I have seen is the typical riffing on competition formants (which doesn't mean professional competition). I can tell a few people here have fought pro, ammy, hobby.

And suggestions that "MMA has a lot to learn from TMA", the subject of this thread which is backwards because MMA was developed from the churn of TMA in front of cameras?

Then came the "well, TMA has deadly secrets" trope which also is a fallacy.

So really, whatever your TMA is, if you still feel the need to defend it....maybe that is your own issue.

Because I have never ever felt obliged to go online on any given day to do something else like that.

Just go compete. That doesn't mean enter a tournament or go on tv...it means test yourself. Often.

Feel free, to express as you please, I’m not offended by downvotes or any of it. I think it’s a ridiculous thread in general. It’s all related, have at it my friend. Most of the argument here is not cogent argument at all, it’s opinion and conjecture sprinkled with personal invective. But may I submit that I’m sure any skilled MMA fighter can submit me in a match. Lots of people probably can, and a few actually have. I come here and wade through mires like this one for entertainment purposes. I’m 53, been training a long time by any standard, my fight days are behind me unless it’s necessary. I know what it is, I know what works for me.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I'm sure it has already been used. I teach a variation of that move which I use both in grappling and MMA sparring. I've seen plenty of other people teach the combo as well, so I'm sure it's been used in the cage. I just can't remember a particular fight to pull up the video from.

BTW, the main difference with the version I use is that I would usually do it from an underhook. In your example, the person doing the technique has already used an arm drag to get to the back. If I get that far, then I would rather solidify my back control and work from there, because it gives some better options.

If you get the drag and get the back would that be you continuing to stand or would you be looking for the drag and subsequent back taking to be on the ground? Just curious? Because I have no ground game to speak of, I’m always looking for a best way to capitalize on following up standing sweeps.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I'm sure it has already been used. I teach a variation of that move which I use both in grappling and MMA sparring. I've seen plenty of other people teach the combo as well, so I'm sure it's been used in the cage. I just can't remember a particular fight to pull up the video from.

BTW, the main difference with the version I use is that I would usually do it from an underhook. In your example, the person doing the technique has already used an arm drag to get to the back. If I get that far, then I would rather solidify my back control and work from there, because it gives some better options.

In Taiwan many years ago, "Tie" was considered as one of the TMA secrets. In Taiwan, my teacher used to say that if anybody could answer his 3 questions, he would give that person $10,000. Those 3 questions are:

1. Tie.
2. 3 sections control.
3. Guiding hand, cover hand, trapping hand.

Today, we can find all 3 answers online.

The idea of

- attack one leg (closer to you), and then
- attack the other leg (farther away from you)

is a general MA principle. I'm sure MMA guys will figure this out soon or later. But it can be faster to learn directly from TMA.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

If you get the drag and get the back would that be you continuing to stand or would you be looking for the drag and subsequent back taking to be on the ground? Just curious? Because I have no ground game to speak of, I’m always looking for a best way to capitalize on following up standing sweeps.

In a grappling match or MMA sparring I would typically use the rear body lock to set up a takedown. After the takedown I might or might not still be on the back. (There are more takedowns from that position which do not result in a back mount than ones which do.)

In a self-defense/non-sportive context I might or might not be looking to go to the ground from that position. I might just want to push my opponent into a painful obstacle or use him as a shield against a second attacker or get a couple of free strikes then push him away and take off running. Against an untrained opponent I have a good chance of securing a standing rear choke. That doesn’t work so well against skilled opponents unless you jump up and put your hooks in like a human backpack. It’s a valid tactic in MMA, but too risky for my taste in a street environment.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

In a grappling match or MMA sparring I would typically use the rear body lock to set up a takedown. After the takedown I might or might not still be on the back. (There are more takedowns from that position which do not result in a back mount than ones which do.)

In a self-defense/non-sportive context I might or might not be looking to go to the ground from that position. I might just want to push my opponent into a painful obstacle or use him as a shield against a second attacker or get a couple of free strikes then push him away and take off running. Against an untrained opponent I have a good chance of securing a standing rear choke. That doesn’t work so well against skilled opponents unless you jump up and put your hooks in like a human backpack. It’s a valid tactic in MMA, but too risky for my taste in a street environment.

Thanks!

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

In a self-defense/non-sportive context I might or might not be looking to go to the ground from that position.

IMO, in street fight, face to face take down is more proper. You take your opponent down; you then take off.

Unfortunately, "mobility" and "ground game" contradict to each other.

 

[windwalker099]

IMO, in street fight, face to face take down is more proper. You take your opponent down; you then take off.

Unfortunately, "mobility" and "ground game" contradict to each other.

agree

Why I sometimes, ask what one means by "fighting"

For those I work with, we have a drill:

One person stands inside a 12' OD circle drawn on the ground, positioned at the center.
Another person stands outside the circle. Once they step in, neither participant is allowed to step outside the boundaries.

The goal:
The person inside must prevent the other from reaching the opposite side.
The person outside must get to the other side.

This drill trains engagement and non-engagement strategies.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

agree

Why I sometimes, ask what one means by "fighting"

For those I work with, we have a drill:

One person stands inside a 12' OD circle drawn on the ground, positioned at the center.
Another person stands outside the circle. Once they step in, neither participant is allowed to step outside the boundaries.

The goal:
The person inside must prevent the other from reaching the opposite side.
The person outside must get to the other side.

This drill trains engagement and non-engagement strategies.

I do this sometimes with my students in the MMA cage. One person (the “defender” starts on the wall opposite the cage door. The other person (the “bad guy”) starts in the middle, between the defender and the door. The defender’s goal is to reach the door, which represents an exit to safety. The bad guy tries to attack the defender, but keep them from reaching the exit and safety.

 

[marvin8]

TMA has a lot to offer to MMA. Just give another 10 more years. I'm sure some MMA guys will use the TMA "rhino guard" to obtain TMA "head lock" in order to change a striking game into a grappling game.

TMAists and high level grapplers in MMA already change a striking game into a grappling game. Some problems with your “rhino guard” are your guard is...

1. shortened.
2. reactive.
3. less control.
4. your opponent can control two hands with one hand.
5. not simultaneous.
6. not proven (e.g., system A vs system B).
7. vulnerable to feints.
8. open to counters.
9. chasing hands rather than center.
10. does not follow 6 harmonies, etc.

 

[marvin8]

In Taiwan many years ago, "Tie" was considered as one of the TMA secrets. In Taiwan, my teacher used to say that if anybody could answer his 3 questions, he would give that person $10,000. Those 3 questions are:

1. Tie.
2. 3 sections control.
3. Guiding hand, cover hand, trapping hand.

Today, we can find all 3 answers online.

The idea of

- attack one leg (closer to you), and then
- attack the other leg (farther away from you)

is a general MA principle. I'm sure MMA guys will figure this out soon or later. But it can be faster to learn directly from TMA.

The throws you mention are already used in MMA. Some throws are higher percentage or more vulnerable than others.

 

[marvin8]

The idea of

- attack one leg (closer to you), and then
- attack the other leg (farther away from you)

is a general MA principle. I'm sure MMA guys will figure this out soon or later. But it can be faster to learn directly from TMA.

The idea used in a 2008 MMA fight. Uchi Mata Ankle Pick to Armbar...

 

[Steve]

So I asked CoPilot about you Steve. Ai is still stupid, it makes a bunch of assumptions. It's like a human that makes assumptions but 10x as worse. I hope they fix it.

So I asked about Steve's actual stance in regard to this thread. Once I asked the question it finally gave an answer that sounds like Steve.

Copliot's thoughts on Steve in this Thread. (question. What is Steve's actual stance in this thread?"
"From the content discussed, Steve doesn't explicitly express his views on the integration or benefits of traditional martial arts within modern MMA in the posts we've referenced. His contributions in this thread seem focused on addressing personal disputes rather than delving into the main topic of discussion.

Without specific posts where Steve articulates his perspective on traditional martial arts and their role in MMA, it's challenging to determine his actual stance."

Steve. this is you all the way. I had to ask the same question of myself.

"What is JowGaWolf's actual stance in this thread?"
"JowGaWolf's stance is that traditional martial arts have a vital role to play in modern MMA. He champions the idea that the techniques, philosophies, and cultural aspects of traditional styles like Jow Ga Kung Fu can significantly enrich a fighter's abilities and approach to the sport. By promoting a hybrid model that respects tradition while embracing modern advancements, he believes fighters can attain higher levels of proficiency and success in MMA."

What say you Steve? Hit or

Getting more onto the point of the thread, I'd say my actual stance in this thread is the opposite of what the AI thinks yours is. Or more accurately, I think how the AI summarized your stance is pretty much accepted by everyone as obvious. What is more underappreciated is that MMA has, since its inception, significantly enriched TMA. As I said in post 2 of this thread, the underpinnings of MMA has always been traditional martial arts. That's nothing new. What some of the folks in this thread just don't see is how their TMAs have significantly benefited from MMA and combat sports writ large, whether they think so or not.

But to more directly address your post above, I have to hand it to you. This is a new one on me. Personal attacks using AI. That's pretty clever.

For what it's worth, I said what I wanted in a couple posts: 2, 86, 88, 154. So, since you're picking up for your friend, if you want to just go ahead and point out where I've claimed expertise that I don't have or lied about something... feel free to DM me if you prefer. Beyond that, based on your word count, it's clear that this forum is very important to you, and I respect that.

Edit: Hey, maybe you're better at AI than me. I tried recreating your post above, and get this from Copilot: "I'm sorry, but I'm unable to access specific threads or user posts from MartialTalk.com directly. However, if you can provide some details or quotes from Steve's posts in that thread, I'd be happy to help analyze his stance based on that information!" So....

 

[Steve]

Prevarication is not lying, nice try. I’d say look it up, but your post I’m replying to is literally another act of it. As far as the “rules” I haven’t called you anything, I’ve accurately described your documentable behavior. No doubt, you don’t like the taste, but I never called you anything, I described your talent.

Definition of PREVARICATE

to deviate from the truth : equivocate… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

I really recommend you read that page. But if you're saying you didn't mean to call me a liar, just clarify what you did mean. Or you can apologize and it's water under the bridge. I won't hold a grudge. Let's be clear. I can be a pretty direct (aka a giant a-hole) from time to time. But I'm not a liar. I don't inflate my expertise. And I rarely post something as fact that I am not very confident is correct.

 

[Steve]

Hey, last one, everybody. I promise.

I'm getting better at Copilot and would like to share an actual summary of my stance in this thread with you. Pretty neat when you actually use it:

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

9. chasing hands rather than center.

In a fist flying environment, if you want to enter through your opponent's front door (his center), you will need to move both of his arms away from his head (his center). That's exactly what the rhino guard is trying to do.

rhino guard -> head lock -> take down