The Resurgence of Traditional Martial Arts in Modern Mixed Martial Arts

[Sammy Naur]

That, to my mind, is the value of the MMA approach, though I freely admit that I don't feel at home in the MMA culture.

I think it really depends on the local scene. I've been part of very toxic boxing gyms, BJJ schools, but also others where everyone was respectful.

Some MMA places are absolutely terrible, usually because they are run by horrible human beings, and those places attract a certain kind of person.

Others, like you mentioned, are full of cool people, who also tend to flock together.

My favorites are still the wrestling people, male and female. That's a really tough crowd, and sure some of them have issues, but there is always a great sports unity going on there. The jackasses in the group tend to isolate themselves.

Sure the whole "jock" stereotype is always mentioned, but it's usually not fair,these are just people who follow the advice of champions and train harder than most. And MMA fighters tend to train way harder than anyone else in martial arts. I know hard as nails Judoka and Samboists who would never step in a cage, not because they are scared, they just know they don't train that level.

 

[Sammy Naur]

wondered if you had a combat sport where the goal was to actually injure the other guy as quickly as as possible, would you see way more TMA stuff?

I doubt it because I order to train it you would increase the number of serious injuries and decrease the population of fighters. I know there are some arts that claim to teach this sort of "life and death" stuff but let's face it, it's just not reality in the developed world. The most brutal competitions nowadays are still pretty tame, unless you count human cockfights and gang initiations in failed states like Somalia, or inner city slums.

But in history, when life wasn't nearly as valuable, that's basically how Roman gladiators fought. Hurt the other man until he yields or dies.

Professional Roman gladiators probably had a 10-20% death rate over time for various reasons. But the Romans would throw criminals into the Colosseum all the time, with minimal training, and they were expected to die.

Did most Roman gladiator fights end in death?

Gladiatorial contests are often depicted as bloody and brutal battles to the death, with only the most valiant fighters allowed to survive. But how true is this?

www.badancient.com

 

[drop bear]

"...bringing a renewed sense of strategy, artistry, and philosophy to the cage...

That's a stretch.

UFC fighters are following an arbitrary ruleset that's confined within an octagon with a fence around it. It's not that deep.

It is a pretty deep.

There wasn't the vehicle for people to fight with that many different dynamics before structured MMA.

Which has opened up the ability for people to scientifically test ideas a lot more.

Animal day for example was a messy version of trying to replicate that idea.

 

[ap Oweyn]

I think it really depends on the local scene. I've been part of very toxic boxing gyms, BJJ schools, but also others where everyone was respectful.

Some MMA places are absolutely terrible, usually because they are run by horrible human beings, and those places attract a certain kind of person.

Others, like you mentioned, are full of cool people, who also tend to flock together.

My favorites are still the wrestling people, male and female. That's a really tough crowd, and sure some of them have issues, but there is always a great sports unity going on there. The jackasses in the group tend to isolate themselves.

Sure the whole "jock" stereotype is always mentioned, but it's usually not fair,these are just people who follow the advice of champions and train harder than most. And MMA fighters tend to train way harder than anyone else in martial arts. I know hard as nails Judoka and Samboists who would never step in a cage, not because they are scared, they just know they don't train that level.

Oh yeah. And I'm not thinking "jocks v. nerds" specifically. (Though I am, most assuredly, the latter.) It's more that I'm not very competitive by nature. So yeah, my experience with MMA folks has been overwhelmingly positive. I'm just not much into sports (despite enjoying the art of boxing and other combat sports) or competition (though I have competed a little in FMA stickfighting). Never have been. That's all.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

But to be fair most UFC fighters will really destroy most TMA fighters that don't train beyond the "soft skills". And there are plenty of MMA competitors that appreciate strategy, artistry, and philosophy.

The ruleset isn't really arbitrary, I would argue TMA helped define it. If anthing MMA is less violent than TMA historically. There's a ref, laws, rules, medics, etc. and TMA people who attempt barbaric stuff will go to jail for years. You can't do that in most places anymore. Maybe in the third world where warlords rule.

Somebody showed me a Mongolian Bohk technique once that basically broke legs. But the Mongolians don't do that sort of thing to each other for the last few hundred years because they are more civilized nowadays.

I don't think much has changed in this regard though, since UFC 1. If you don't really train as a fighter, for real, all the philosophy, strategy, and artistry might as well be written on your tombstone.

The thing all the “MMA is best” guys forget is how short the expiration date is on mma fighters. They will be talking bout the “good ol days when I could walk right” at 55 years old. My 80 year old Sigung could “destroy” any mma fighter the same age likely with the use of “soft skills” only.

 

[Xue Sheng]

The thing all the “MMA is best” guys forget is how short the expiration date is on mma fighters. They will be talking bout the “good ol days when I could walk right” at 55 years old. My 80 year old Sigung could “destroy” any mma fighter the same age likely with the use of “soft skills” only.

Speaking of one of your teachers, I will be training with him again in April

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I think that's a given from UFC1 onward, when there there no gloves or time limits, wrestling dominated, even against people who claimed to be elite strikers.

End of the day, things like endurance, patience, and agility win. And a lot of the pure TMA crowd don't exhibit those qualities. They are associated with ranks, belts, lineage, old books, and religious/self cultivation themes.

As much as I dislike some of them, a well trained MMA fighter is likely going to murder a TMA devotee in a street fight. That's the whole "street vs sport fallacy". A well trained combat athlete, or even a D1 wrestler, is going to throttle the average TMA black belt. And I don't say that to discourage TMA but we just don't have much evidence to the contrary.

But in that context I would argue modern MMA is far closer to ancient fighting that TMA is, because TMA has all that baggage.

Sure, but a D1 wrestler is the exception. MMA average guy vs TMA average guy. Same with UFC. Yes, a 35 year old UFC competitor at TV level status will crush 35 year old me. Let’s see how average mid fifties age guys do. It’s easy to say a pro anything or D1 can beat average TMA guy.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

A lot of people studying TMA definitely don't. I'm not inferring that from what you said, but it's the truth.

We live in an age where most TMAists wouldn't survive in a fight because of how they train (not like Benny).

How else did we get a million kiddy karate places and strip mall dojos catering to people who only punch air?

I'm just being honest, a lot of those types try boxing for a day and never return, it gets too real.

Yeah but Frank Dux tried to get away with something similar and was proven a fraud, and that's a pretty objective statement.

There are a huge number of people in the world who claim to train banned techniques ancient secrets etc. but then you put them in a basic kickboxing or grappling match and they are finished fast.

That's not the rulesets limiting anything. Blood flows freely in most UFC matches, limbs get broken, etc.

But there is a fantasist crowd out there today that still believes in no touch KOs, death touches, and things like Ip Man movies showcase actual fighting. Now that last one is a great example, I like Ip Man movies and Donnie Yen, but even he will tell you they are fantasy, and to really meld the TMA you need to have an MMA mindset. I think he even said that in an interview once.

To be sure, there are a great number of frauds in TMA. Many (most) of the “secret ancient banned technique” crowd are full of it. I disagree that one needs an mma mindset. UFC careers only last a short few years, then what? Don’t be fooled, every last one of those athletes are one injury away from total disaster. If you are 20-35 you maybe able to have an mma mindset when training, at 53, it’s courting catastrophe unless you are independently wealthy. I will give an example for the doubters. A local martial artist who was quite skilled and successful in local mma events was 21 years old and entered an mma competition, he received a neck fracture during the event that made him a permanent member of the quadriplegic community. There is very little protection for these guys if they become disabled as a result of entering these professional arenas. I have to wonder what this sport will look like in 25 years when we start to see the results in the retired folks. To be fair, competition is not a bad thing, in martial arts or in the world at large. I don’t think it’s a legitimate argument to compare UFC pro athletes or D1 wrestlers to the TMA community in general. It is ignorant to debase and devalue teachings or traditions we have no experience with on the basis of “i saw it on tv” as if it were somehow the basis of scientific deduction. I see it as a sum loss for martial arts in general to have our youngsters see the UFC soap opera it has become as the way toward, or the pinnacle of masculinity. Anyone can be a prostitute, it’s not something to aspire to.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Speaking of one of your teachers, I will be training with him again in April

What are you working on this time? You get a better value even if you fly out here. I’d love to meet you anyway.

 

[Xue Sheng]

What are you working on this time? You get a better value even if you fly out here. I’d love to meet you anyway.

Push hands, and the commute to California is a bit much

 

[drop bear]

The thing all the “MMA is best” guys forget is how short the expiration date is on mma fighters. They will be talking bout the “good ol days when I could walk right” at 55 years old. My 80 year old Sigung could “destroy” any mma fighter the same age likely with the use of “soft skills” only.

Dan severn is still training at 66.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Dan severn is still training at 66.

Sure, and he is skilled, and has a legitimate fight record. Have you seen Tank Abbot, Frank Shamrock, Kimo, or the hundreds of almost made its? The reality for the vast majority of career athletes in any contact sport isn’t so pretty. Even less so if the pay is less than $12,000 after expenses and taxes for the average pro mma card fight. There are exceptions of course, but many of the names that helped build the popular franchises into the multi billion dollar industry of today barely made ends meet and are crippled now. It’s important to keep it all in perspective, there are exceptions to everything. Some people want that, and obviously it’s very popular with the fans, but we shouldn’t pretend that MMA somehow lends itself to the durability of the participants. In this case, its not the years, it’s the mileage.