OP
J-kid
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #21
THats not true at all most fights end up on the ground and i mean most fights, ask anyone its a well known fact
eternalwhitebelt
Green Belt
- Joined
- Jun 10, 2002
- Messages
- 104
- Reaction score
- 0
If you want t be a great martial artist you need many things.
1. A great system (or two)
2. A great teacher
3. Natural talent
4. A great work ethic.
5. You have to learn weapon concepts, how to take them away and how to use them.
Judo kid, you are still young and you seem pretty gung-ho, I like that, but there is a lot more going on in the world of combat than the UFC and mixed martial arts. Real combat arts are deadly and to the point. There are no submissions in real combat. There is no ref and there is no break between rounds. A weapon WILL be pulled if any of the paricipants has one and the chances are you will not see it coming so you HAVE to expect it. Boxing is a sport. Yes you can learn a lot from it, I personally love to box, but outside of the ring I have no problem dealing with a boxer quickly and effectively. Boxers do not expect to throw a punch into your elbow and have their hand explode on contact. I train for this everyday. This is only one example, there are many. I could say the same thing about judo. It is a sport. On the mat I have beensubmitted many times by my judo friends. However when we open the game up and allow all of the tools that I have been taught it is no contest. BY all means enjoy what you are currently doing but do not close your minds on some arts that you have not studied. There are arts that have many of the anwsers that you are looking for, and some that you are not looking for.
1. A great system (or two)
2. A great teacher
3. Natural talent
4. A great work ethic.
5. You have to learn weapon concepts, how to take them away and how to use them.
Judo kid, you are still young and you seem pretty gung-ho, I like that, but there is a lot more going on in the world of combat than the UFC and mixed martial arts. Real combat arts are deadly and to the point. There are no submissions in real combat. There is no ref and there is no break between rounds. A weapon WILL be pulled if any of the paricipants has one and the chances are you will not see it coming so you HAVE to expect it. Boxing is a sport. Yes you can learn a lot from it, I personally love to box, but outside of the ring I have no problem dealing with a boxer quickly and effectively. Boxers do not expect to throw a punch into your elbow and have their hand explode on contact. I train for this everyday. This is only one example, there are many. I could say the same thing about judo. It is a sport. On the mat I have beensubmitted many times by my judo friends. However when we open the game up and allow all of the tools that I have been taught it is no contest. BY all means enjoy what you are currently doing but do not close your minds on some arts that you have not studied. There are arts that have many of the anwsers that you are looking for, and some that you are not looking for.
OP
fist of fury
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #23
Unless someone is a seasoned street fighter it usually only takes one or 2 hits to take the fight out of them. Then somebody runs off. If you get taken to the ground ground fighting skills are good for a while until the attackers buddies start kicking you while your trying to submit your opponent. It's best to train to keep yourself of the ground. And the 90% of fights go to the ground myth is a story perpetuated byt the brainwashed mma/ufc fanatics.
Do you know how many times this gets brought up in favor of grappling arts over striking arts? OK, if this is such a well known fact, you must also know where it came from, right? How about providing us with a reference so we can check it out ourselves? Was this stated in a book or journal article? A police study? Can you provide some statistics to back it up? Tell us how the data were gathered and the method used to obtain the result? Do conditions of the fight, environment, people/styles involved, trained fighters or not, rules or not, etc., have some effect on whether or not the fight goes to the ground? Are we talking about real life street fights or controlled fights like UFC/NHB competitions?
These are the kind of things we need to know to determine the validity of a claim for ourselves. Scientific method -- you make the claim, you provide the evidence so we can check it out ourselves. If it's true, it should be reproducible. If you're referencing someone else's work, tell us what it is so we can look it up and see how he/she got the results you're quoting. "Most fights end up on the ground" is a statistic -- most = greater than 50%. Now provide the statistics and references to back it up and show me it has some validity or I'm not going to believe it. If I were to say "most fights don't go to the ground" would you believe me if the only support I provided was "ask anyone, it's a well known fact"?
OP
J-kid
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #25
I have seen them in books also for a fact i have seen many realife fights and yes everyone endup on the ground, so what you think that you can take someone out with 2 hits be my guest and try. TALK IS CHEAP inless you can back up what you say. About the 90 percent of fights ending up on the ground. This is a true statement i have seen polls etc. My second question is have you been in a real fight.
OP
fist of fury
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #26
I never said I could take anyone out in 2 hits I said most people aren't ready for the shock of being hit and once hit they don't want to get hit anymore. Yes I've been in real life fights not many, I've walked away from quite a few. And no I didn't lose and I didn't get taken to the ground either. Polls can be easily manipulated.
OP
Rob_Broad
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #27
Judo-Kid many of the more learned members in this thread are taking into consideration that you are only 16 and at that age you are full of knowledge, while us old farts don't know what we are talking about.
As a person who was a bouncer in a bar and had to break up many fight or be in many fights escorting someone out of the bar, I will say that 90% of the fights do not end up on the ground. In actuality I have only been in 2 fights that went to the ground. Saying something is so doesn't make it true around her, this group like to see proof, if you have the statistics from a website share the link.
Nothing out there is close to real fighting except real fighting. And in a real fight there is no winner.
As a person who was a bouncer in a bar and had to break up many fight or be in many fights escorting someone out of the bar, I will say that 90% of the fights do not end up on the ground. In actuality I have only been in 2 fights that went to the ground. Saying something is so doesn't make it true around her, this group like to see proof, if you have the statistics from a website share the link.
Nothing out there is close to real fighting except real fighting. And in a real fight there is no winner.
OP
J-kid
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #28
Sure i will take a look for a site with some proof and yeah i know i am 16 with plenty to learn. One day your gonna see me on TV as a ufc fighter. 
OP
Rob_Broad
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #29
Originally posted by Judo-kid
Sure i will take a look for a site with some proof and yeah i know i am 16 with plenty to learn. One day your gonna see me on TV as a ufc fighter.
Everybody but have a goal, I just have goals that have some longevity.
KennethKu
2nd Black Belt
- Joined
- Aug 3, 2002
- Messages
- 757
- Reaction score
- 17
I read at the ITF forum that some one mentioned the 90% number refers to police making arrest. So yeah, the COPS would most likely take the suspect to the ground. So that is not a valid number to use in other fighting situations.
See, Judo-kid, this is my point. KennethKu is saying there's a qualifier on that 90% of fights go to the ground -- that it's police arrests. He's right that it makes sense there, because they want to control the suspect. Grappling provides more chance for control than striking does, right? If that's true though, it doesn't necessarily hold true for other types of fights in other conditions. You can't take a statement that's true in one case and claim it holds true in all cases. This is why I was saying we need to know more about the data you're getting your results from.
As far as fighting goes, I don't know who you were asking about their experience. I have not had any sparring/combat training and I'm pretty sure I've said so elsewhere on the board. I have not been in a real fight and I have never claimed to have been in one. I also never said anything about taking someone out with two hits. Please watch your quotes and attributions and direct your questions to the people you want to answer them. If posting on a subject here I normally state my level of experience with it. But you don't need any experience with fights to dispute a statistical claim about them and that's what I was doing -- saying provide the evidence to back up the claim or I (and probably others) won't believe it.
As far as fighting goes, I don't know who you were asking about their experience. I have not had any sparring/combat training and I'm pretty sure I've said so elsewhere on the board. I have not been in a real fight and I have never claimed to have been in one. I also never said anything about taking someone out with two hits. Please watch your quotes and attributions and direct your questions to the people you want to answer them. If posting on a subject here I normally state my level of experience with it. But you don't need any experience with fights to dispute a statistical claim about them and that's what I was doing -- saying provide the evidence to back up the claim or I (and probably others) won't believe it.
Kempojujutsu
Master Black Belt
90% of all hockey fights go to the ground. Maybe thats what he means? Going back to the UFC thing again. At one point submission was how most fights ended in the early days of UFC. Than most MA learn how to counter the submissions, fights could last over 30 minutes waiting on someone to submit his opponent. Then came ground & Pound, usually they didn't look for a submission. This would be how a streetfighter would fight if he landed on the ground. And he would only use this method if he didn't have a weapon to use. UFC are just like boxing, kickboxing matches. It's a sport of the 2000's period.
Bob :asian:
Bob :asian:
OP
sweeper
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #33
ok, judo kid you missed the point of what I was saying, I was saying there is no "closest to a real fight " in a sport, they are to dis-simular, you engage in them for seperate reasons, training for UFC is not training for self deffence or for street fighting or for anything else. It may help out something else or paralel it but it isn't of it's self training for self deffence or "real" fighting.
As to the statistic thing, I know an ex-bouncer that said most fights that last more than a minute end up on the ground, but he said most fights end with the first combination.. Also if you were to aska bouncer how many times he went down that would be an unfair question because in many cases in the US bouncers will grapple with a person over boxing them due to lawasuits. Something else I might bring up is a fight won't go to the ground if neither the fighters want to be on the ground, they don't just magicly fall over and start rolling, most fighters don't want to go down unless they are loosing (when they will clinch) in other words either you are winning and the other person wants to clinch or you are loosing and you clinch, otherwise you are probably fighting someone with grappling experience, that being said it isn't realy that difficult to stay up unless the person realy knows what they are doing.
As to the statistic thing, I know an ex-bouncer that said most fights that last more than a minute end up on the ground, but he said most fights end with the first combination.. Also if you were to aska bouncer how many times he went down that would be an unfair question because in many cases in the US bouncers will grapple with a person over boxing them due to lawasuits. Something else I might bring up is a fight won't go to the ground if neither the fighters want to be on the ground, they don't just magicly fall over and start rolling, most fighters don't want to go down unless they are loosing (when they will clinch) in other words either you are winning and the other person wants to clinch or you are loosing and you clinch, otherwise you are probably fighting someone with grappling experience, that being said it isn't realy that difficult to stay up unless the person realy knows what they are doing.
Kempojujutsu
Master Black Belt
Let say you punch or kick someone and they fall down and you run away. Does that count as one way that most fights go to the ground. Because that would inflate the % of how most fights go to the ground.
Bob :rofl:
Bob :rofl:
Ummm.......as my wife put it you only end up on the ground if you suck.... Not my opinion but I thought it was funny..
All my fights that I have ever been in I have never ended on the ground. And I am sure that I have been in more fights than you have. I beat the living S&%T out of them standing up. And this was before I was trained in any art. I could go into details, but I will spare everyone. Not all fights end on the ground, nor should they. IF YOU ARE A TRAINED AND SEASONED FIGHTER YOU WILL NOT END UP ON THE GROUND, you just won't want to go there. You will get to understand this the first time that you lose in a street fight. You will understand after some of your oppenents friends start kicking the crap out of you while you are on the ground.
Michael
OP
hand2handCombat
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #36
for strinking, judo-kid, instead of joining karate for kicks and boxing for punches. your could have went to MT or JKD.
i think ppl dont invent and art like that becasue they could do mma. because inventing an art requires major study.
so, suggestions for "any situation" problems: MT, BJJ, Iado, Arnis, Wrestling, JJ
i think ppl dont invent and art like that becasue they could do mma. because inventing an art requires major study.
so, suggestions for "any situation" problems: MT, BJJ, Iado, Arnis, Wrestling, JJ
OP
Kirk
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #37
judo-kid, let's say you ARE a superior fighter, and you get me to
the ground ... well you BETTER hope some of my friends aren't
around, cause your head is going to get stomped into the
concrete
the ground ... well you BETTER hope some of my friends aren't
around, cause your head is going to get stomped into the
concrete
I have seen many things in books, some were true others were not. Assume Non-Fiction, how was the data collected, etc., ..., ?
In High School, most of the fights I saw, ended up on the ground. Why? The wrestlers and football players who tackled, were the ones who were the larger and stronger people who took it to the ground against totally untrained people.
Later while bouncing and security work, 'Most' of the fights I have been in or saw, did not end up on the ground. Just my personal data.
In the bouncing realm, my data is that after a few quick exchanges, either the fight is over, or people do not wish to continue. Just my personal experience again. BTW, be cautious, how you tell 'TALK IS CHEAP', and 'BACK UP WHAT YOU SAY' too. These are offensive and fight starting words. Someone just might take you up on it. And my experience the ones who do, LIKE TO FIGHT, and put people in the hospital for fun. Just my experience.
Please show the data, a trusted publisher, a site that can be questioned for its' sources. Just because I say that there is life on other planets does not make it true until proof has been given some how.
Once again my Experience would not cover 'Most', which I would call 50%, so 90% is way over the limit, of the fights going to the ground.
As for the police taking it to the ground, this is their training, and this how they expect to win. More cops show up for back-up and the poor slug on the ground with them has multiple people trying to hurt him into submission. Once again just my experience.
(* Deleted after second thought *)
You figure it out, and you let me know if you believe if I have ever been in a real fight.
Rich
I bet this is closer to the truth.
Judging from video on TV--COPS, news, etc.--the overwhelming liklihood seems to be a wild right punch to the head, followed by two or three more, followed by an attempt to tackle.
As for the comment "IF YOU ARE A TRAINED AND SEASONED FIGHTER YOU WILL NOT END UP ON THE GROUND", I just don't buy it. It ain't always gonna happen the way you want it to happen.
Arnisador,
Please excuse, my post if I came across this way. "IF YOU ARE A TRAINED AND SEASONED FIGHTER YOU WILL NOT END UP ON THE GROUND" I never meant to come across this way if I did. I said most. I have been on the floor / ground in many fights, just not most. Assuming that you count fights where only one or two punches exchanges are thrown, and people want to leave since you are still standing.
Just a follow-up clarification of my previous post.
Rich
