Follow along with the video below to see how to install our site as a web app on your home screen.
Note: This feature may not be available in some browsers.
Good Point Joe. Let me explain to the best of my ability.Karazenpo said:Kelly stated:
6. Bruce claims to be the head of his version of Kosho. Not the head of all versions of Kosho. Tom Mitose, Ray Arquilla, have the right to exist and practice what they believe to be kosho.
I really have not paid close attention to the lineage charts for Kosho on the net. So if any one knows of one that is misleading please let me know I'd like to see where these misconceptions are comming from.
Hi Kell, good post, I just don't agree with #6. How can it be just Bruce's version of Kosho yet he's the 22 descendant which would mean 'his' is the Kosho art and everything else would be 'their' version, know what I mean? Personally, I think the original Kosho is of the Thomas Young lineage and it would be hard to argue that it's not.
Actually you can go farther than that:The Kai said:Like wise
Hanshi Juchnik=Tracy's
Gm Arquillqa (sp?) = Tracy's
GM Alemany = Shaolin Kenpo
Eugene Sedeno=American kenpo
So where does this leave us?
John, Please explain your thought pattern on this.John Bishop said:We would have better conversations here if we::feedtroll
The imlpication is clear to standers-by.GAB said:John, Please explain your thought pattern on this.
Regards, Gary
USKS1USKS1 said:I have a question. I know Thomas Mitose is considered to be head of one of the Kosho systems, based on his bloodline... But didn't he get the bulk of his training in Kajukenbo?
So is he really teaching Kosho??
Sometimes things aren't always so easy to classify...
Hi, If it is that clear, explain it please in a pm to me or however you want.Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:The imlpication is clear to standers-by.
Dave
Hi all,kelly keltner said:I couldn't agree more John. Most of the articles in the last 20 years focus on Bruce in relationship to "Mitose's art".
However the info about Hanshi's past is available. He does not try to hide that fact. The focus tends to be toward kosho. Not on Tracy's kenpo. Serrada Escrima or Modern Arnis all of which he is qualified in.
kelly
Joe:Karazenpo said:*Biography from Soke Charles Fisher.
BIOGRAPHY OF JOHN C. LEONING
JOHN C. LEONING WAS BORN IN HAWAII ON MAY 3, 1927 AND THE HOLDER OF THE 8TH DEGREE BLACK BELT IN THE KAJUKENBO SYSTEM AND OPERATED THE NORTH AMERICAN KUNG-FU AND KARATE SCHOOL IN NORTH HOLLYWOOD, CALIFORNIA FOR MANY YEARS.
HIS TEACHER WAS SIJO (FOUNDER) ADRIANO EMPERADO ON THE BIG ISLAND OF HAWAII. THIS WAS A ROUGH STYLE WITH ROUGH TEACHING METHODS, DESIGNED TO CREATE FIGHTERS IN ANY ENVIRONMENT OR SITUATION. THAT CLASS IN HAWAII HAD MANY FUTURE GREAT TEACHERS---THESE INCLUDED MR. ED PARKER THE CREATOR OF KENPO KARATE, SIFU RICHARD BUSTILLO OF THE IMB ACADEMY OF TORRANCE, CALIFORNIA AND PROFESSOR "LUCKY" E. LUCIANO, A NOW RED SATIN/SILVER BELT--9TH DEGREE---SIFU OF THE SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA BRANCH B.C. MEXICO KAJUKENBO ASSOCIATION.
SIFU JOHN C. LEONING WAS AN EIGHT DEGREE RED AND WHITE STRIPE BELT (THE HIGHEST RANKING BLACK BELT IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA IN 1960) WITH TRAINING IN CHOY LI FAT KUNG-FU FROM SIFU SHARE K, LEW.
SIFU JOHN C. LEONING WAS CHARLES B. FISHER, YODAN--4TH DEGREE BLACK BELT TWENTIETH TEACHER.
CARLO BUNDA--A BLACK BELT IN KAJUKENBO WHO TRAINED UNDER JOHN C. LEONING, HACHIDAN --8TH DEGREE BLACK BELT WON THE FIRST INTERNATIONAL KARATE CHAMPIONSHIP AT LONG BEACH, CALIFORNIA HOSTED BY ED PARKER, SHICHIDAN--7TH DEGREE BLACK BELT.
SIFU LEONING USED TO SAY "TAKE IT EASY" SIFU LEONING USED TO CHANGE THE SETS ALL THE TIME, SO IF YOU WERE GOING ANY LENGTH OF TIME AND WHEN YOU RETURNED TO CLASS, YOU HAD TO LEARN THE SETS ALL OVER AGAIN. SIFU LEONING NEVER DID THAT WITH THE BASICS THOUGH.
THE REASON I WAS PROMOTED TO YODAN--4TH DEGREE BLACK BELT WAS SIFU LEONING KNEW MY EAST COAST TEACHER--DANIEL K. PAI, SHICHIDAN --7TH DEGREE BLACK BELT ALSO FROM HAWAII AND I ALSO KNEW ALL THE BASICS AND THE SETS.
SIFU LEONING WAS IN FILMS ABOUT FOUR YEARS WHEN HE WON A ROLE IN THE "KUNG-FU" T.V. SERIES ON STRENGTH OF HIS TALENTS IN THE MARTIAL ARTS. AMONG HIS FILMS WERE "PIPE DREAMS" AND HIS FINAL FILM WAS "KENTUCKY FRIED MOVIE".
SIFU LEONING WORKED FOR A JANITOR SERVICE AFTER THE KAJUKENBO CLASS WAS OVER. SIFU LEONING WAS A CATHOLIC. I WAS AT THE MASS (NO VIEWING BECAUSE THE CASKET WAS CLOSED) THE DAY HE WAS BURIED AND AT THE FUNERAL THE KAJUKENBO GROUP PERFORMED NAIHANCHI ONE "THE DANCE OF DEATH". HIS WIFE AND SON WERE THERE ALSO.
SIFU LEONING DIED AT THE AGE OF 50 ON WEDNESDAY MARCH 23, 1977 OF A HEART ATTACK AND IS BURIED AT FOREST LAWN IN THE HOLLYWOOD HILLS, CALIFORNIA.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Bishop said:Joe:
I just noticed your source for this bio. You know better then to take these website claims at face value. Funny thing about this gentleman who calls himself, The founder and Soke of:
SAKANA-DAN RYU GOJU-KENPO KARATE-JUTSU
(FISH-MAN STYLE HARD SOFT-FIST LAW EMPTY HAND-ART)
None of John Leoning's black belts have ever heard of him. And the school address where he says he trained with Leoning was then, and still is a apartment building. Leoning had his school on Lankershim Bl, in No. Hollywood, not where this Soke says he trained. But he wouldn't be the first one to claim rank from someone who is no longer alive to dispute it.
kelly keltner said:Good Point Joe. Let me explain to the best of my ability.
The arguement can be made that Bruce is the 22nd descendant. The argument can also be made that Tom is.
I personaly believe from the documentation that I have seen and interviews and personal interaction with people who were there that Bruce Juchnik is the proper person to recognize as the head of that art. In fact Thomas Young recognized him as such.
However after seeing what people like tom and Ray are doing in an effort to see what Mitose wanted done. I have to give them their due. They are working to see what they percieve as Kosho spread. They are doing an admirable job and deserve recognition for it. So if they want to be the 22 grand poobah that's fine. I don't agree with some of the way history is being spun by them, so what. They may not agree about the history Bruce spins. That's Ok.
They are all working in their own way in the right direction.
That is what is important.
kelly
The Kai said:As to the statement about Thomas Young being the person who continued the school and GGM James Mitose training. That is correct.
Okay quick question. Would'nt Thomas Young be the 22nd< Hanshi the 23rd? If the scholl was left to Thomas Young why is he not part of the lineage?
Todd
Good point Todd...The Kai said:As to the statement about Thomas Young being the person who continued the school and GGM James Mitose training. That is correct.
Okay quick question. Would'nt Thomas Young be the 22nd< Hanshi the 23rd? If the scholl was left to Thomas Young why is he not part of the lineage?
Todd
Yes, that is a sorrowful situation to be in. But it does not make his claims true.GAB said:John Bishop,
Charles Fisher has many type-o's. He is in a rest home, the computer is his life line with the world.
Regards, Gary
Hi Joe:Karazenpo said:Yes, Todd, it would follow, in my opinion, that Professor Young would be the 22nd but if the natural order of progression of lineage follows then the 23rd would be Young's successor, who's name currently alludes me, perhaps John can help). My point in mentioning Thomas Young is simple. He was Mitose's first black belt and is the true keeper of the Kosho flame since he stayed with it for life, evolving and adding to it from it's original teachings. How can anyone argue that? He wasn't someone who got his foundation and advance rankings from another system and then studied the art of Kosho. Wouldn't that be like someone, let's say, with an American Kenpo background, who starts studying Kajukenbo and then becomes the successor to Sijo Emperado? The only exception to my way of thinking would be for Thomas Mitose, if of course 'blood line' is factored in, however, it still appears to me that the original Kosho is found with Professor Young and his descendants. I'm trying not to discredit anyone, that is not my intention, I'm just trying to understand the logic of all of this. It seems to go contrary to everything that came before if you know what I mean..... I also understand that Hanshi Juchnik had a relationship with Professor Young but while checking things out I also came across a picture of GM. Thomas with Professor Young. I guess the debate continues..........
I guess we are alway's going to be on opposing teams, that is OK.John Bishop said:Yes, that is a sorrowful situation to be in. But it does not make his claims true.
Not at all. But when you have someone who claims that he trained in 1970 with John Leoning, and that he was awarded a "4th degree" from John Leoning. I asked some of John Leoning's black belts who "were there" in 1970, including Leoning's most senior black belt. "They" never heard of him. "They" say Leoning's school was on Lankershim Bl, not where this individual claimed to have attended classes.GAB said:I guess we are alway's going to be on opposing teams, that is OK.
Are you the only person with the right information? Is Sijo Adriano Emperado always correct?
Regards, Gary
John Bishop:John Bishop said:Not at all. But when you have someone who claims that he trained in 1970 with John Leoning, and that he was awarded a "4th degree" from John Leoning. I asked some of John Leoning's black belts who "were there" in 1970, including Leoning's most senior black belt. "They" never heard of him. "They" say Leoning's school was on Lankershim Bl, not where this individual claimed to have attended classes.
And. If someone is claiming that John Leoning was of a certain rank, or received a certain rank, at a certain time. Who better to ask, than his teacher, Sijo Emperado. The only one who would have given him his rank.
I've asked you in the past who your sources were, but you've never named any creditible ones.