The Original Curiculum of Kajukenbo/Karazenpo

[BallistikMike]

Hello all,

Once again a great thread with great information in it. I didnt mean for any conflict to happen on when and who received a black belt where and when...lol. Very good info though.

What I wanted to do was see was the original founders of Kajukenbo's curriculum and where it went from there. I am in the process of cross referencing all the basic techniques from the various Kajukenbo videos on the market, the various Shaolin Kempo videos on the market, the written word here on the forum and in private emails, web pages and anything else I can get my grubby hands on for information purpose only.

I would like to see the root of what everyone out there is teaching and from the common elements of ALL you can get a pretty good idea of what the core is.

I have a Kajukenbo guy about 45 minutes from me, but he claims to teach more towards the tournament and competition side. So I am not sure how the techniques have been altered to fit the tournament scene now.

I would like to say this though. It is making it a bit difficult because so many people want to put egos in the mix and change and rename things that are just basic techniques. Forms are changed, recreated or thrown out. Why?

I say its all marketing. It is good for business. Now I may get slammed here and thats fine, but darn if it doesnt tick me off to see so many people "create" systems that are exactly the same and rename or number every darn technique. If you train for years and become good at your art, good enough to teach it then by all means teach what you know, but blast stop the lies. Thats directed to the general MA's not anyone specific...NOT ANYONE SPECIFIC. I said it twice. lol.

Im thinking this summer to take a trip with the family to the east coast and stop in on some of you "old timers" to show what I have found and get some important info. Then the following summer go to the west coast and do the same. Those that will share that is Then throw the whole mess on the internet and have it all be blasted LOL.

Anyway you people here make this forum a daily stop for me so thankyou again.

Mike

 

[GAB]

Hi All,

The word is illegitimate, many words that should be striken from our language (B) word.

The thing is, it is whose OX is getting gored. After 10-20 years it is no longer that considering it is still around. The thing that comes to mind is what drives these persons away from the original art.

Listen and observe. Money, Capitalism, that is the way the Government wants it, Small Business is the gas that runs the country. Free Enterprise, the new mouse trap. Look what the Government had to do to ATT just to name one, now we are going backwards, Walmart comes to mind...

Welcome to the freeworld be happy you are here. Can you imagine what would have happened to Hawaii if it had gone the other way (WW11).

Tomorrow is December the 7th. Don't forget that date, for all you who are to young to even realize what was going on, one fell swoop and thousands were history and that was just the start. Our country had to tighten its belt to get through that one...

Some went to war others did not (people) same o same o...History is being rewritten by the ones that are still around.

We need more Historians. The word Houlie sp? (still) comes to mind. Funny what you remember.

HASP has a special meaning to me, Hawaii circa 1960.

USMC. Semper FI.

Regards, Gary

 

[The Kai]

???? What the hell???

 

[monkey-a-go-go]

Haoulie (pron. Howlie) - Nobody listens to Turtle. Da Hui, black shorts, V-land.

I'm workin' on my riddle & koan GAB.

Ballistic Mike- can't wait to see where your project ends up.

Have fun all.

 

[Karazenpo]

Hello all,

Once again a great thread with great information in it. I didnt mean for any conflict to happen on when and who received a black belt where and when...lol. Very good info though.

What I wanted to do was see was the original founders of Kajukenbo's curriculum and where it went from there. I am in the process of cross referencing all the basic techniques from the various Kajukenbo videos on the market, the various Shaolin Kempo videos on the market, the written word here on the forum and in private emails, web pages and anything else I can get my grubby hands on for information purpose only.

I would like to see the root of what everyone out there is teaching and from the common elements of ALL you can get a pretty good idea of what the core is.

I have a Kajukenbo guy about 45 minutes from me, but he claims to teach more towards the tournament and competition side. So I am not sure how the techniques have been altered to fit the tournament scene now.

I would like to say this though. It is making it a bit difficult because so many people want to put egos in the mix and change and rename things that are just basic techniques. Forms are changed, recreated or thrown out. Why?

I say its all marketing. It is good for business. Now I may get slammed here and thats fine, but darn if it doesnt tick me off to see so many people "create" systems that are exactly the same and rename or number every darn technique. If you train for years and become good at your art, good enough to teach it then by all means teach what you know, but blast stop the lies. Thats directed to the general MA's not anyone specific...NOT ANYONE SPECIFIC. I said it twice. lol.

Im thinking this summer to take a trip with the family to the east coast and stop in on some of you "old timers" to show what I have found and get some important info. Then the following summer go to the west coast and do the same. Those that will share that is Then throw the whole mess on the internet and have it all be blasted LOL.

Anyway you people here make this forum a daily stop for me so thankyou again.

Mike

Mike, you make a lot of sense, I hear ya bro. Professor Joe

 

[DavidCC]

I tried contacting Century MA about the Panther videos. They do offer one Kajukenbo self defense video (#3) on their web site. So far no response. I will pay a "copying fee" and shipping if anyone can provide me with kajukenbo and karazenpo go shinjutsu videos. or can ftp mpg captures, for you fellow geeks out there...

I have shaolin Kempo videos I will trade for same.

 

[The Kai]

Haoulie (pron. Howlie) - Nobody listens to Turtle. Da Hui, black shorts, V-land.

I'm workin' on my riddle & koan GAB.

Ballistic Mike- can't wait to see where your project ends up.

Have fun all.

Again you have to wonder if ypu got something of value or interest to say. Come out and say it!!! The Riddle and Koan nonsense has got to go, imformation is information, why do you mix in your stupid riddles and koans (which i am not sure that they would qualify as anything as intelligent as a koan) are you trying to hid Disinformation, innuendos and assumputions. Please do not reply with the nonsense baby talk please!
Todd

 

[GAB]

Again you have to wonder if ypu got something of value or interest to say. Come out and say it!!! The Riddle and Koan nonsense has got to go, imformation is information, why do you mix in your stupid riddles and koans (which i am not sure that they would qualify as anything as intelligent as a koan) are you trying to hid Disinformation, innuendos and assumputions. Please do not reply with the nonsense baby talk please!
Todd

Kai

When you say baby talk is that because you don't or can't understand. Because you are just being angry at me for the way it has been forever in the martial arts world. Give you one piece of puzzle then you have to assemble the rest...

That way everyone gets to come to their own conclusion. The experience or the intellect (knowledge) has to be there to deceipher through the thick or thin of it.

Explain which part of my thread you have a problem with, is it the fact that I stray from side to side or I am not coming at you in a linear sense or you don't like circle attitude. (clue all three are the same).

I understand honest. I sometimes get into the typing thing and don't really pay attention until it is up and running then I let it hang to get feedback.

I will be interested what you have to say on the red ding you give me. LOL...

Regards, Gary

 

[The Kai]

First off you make three assumptions

1.) that you are more intelligent then me
2.) that you are enlightened
3.) That you are in the role of a teacher

How the Martial arts have been taught in the past? How, would you know.
I could spend 5 minutes trying to "decipher" your foolishness, unfortanatly it would waste my 5 minutes.
Again people with the information post thier information, state their case clearly. You Gibber and F**** Gabber on. Who appointed you mystic all seeing?
Again Please No baby talk
I am sorry if i hurt your feelings, but man _actually I'll tell you what I'll start a Thread
"all Wise Father, self appointed zen master and circular historian, GAB will now answer all "
I should shorten it to "At the Zen Feet of GAB"?

To anyone else who is on this side of lucid, I am sorry for flying off
Todd

 

[GAB]

Hi Kai,

That is what or how you interpret it not me, to think like that is totally wrong...

I am not any of that, now I will ask you do I answer back angry? NO.

I am not angry, you are... Reread my post Todd..

You are really off base, but then maybe I am also, but with the both of us being at the opposite end of spectrum I can see the problem.

I do appreciate your thinking that I should be placed in such honor though.
I would not to be able to fill those shoes so I will have to pass.

Take care,

Regards, Gary

 

[GAB]

What specifically are you asking? Are you saying that just because John Leoning was 31 years old, he had to have been a black belt in 1958?
Not everyone is raised in a temple and taught martial arts at the age of 5. Some people don't get their black belts until their 30's, 40's, or even 50's.

In 1958 there are only 3 karate schools in all of So. California. Tsutomu Oshima's Shotokan school (1955), Ed Parker's Kenpo school (1956), and John Leoning Kajukenbo school (1958).

If you give us some specific questions, maybe some of us can give you some specific answers.

John,
I was just trying to show a time line. If you are in America and have been in the school system until you are 18. Most people would ask or think that you have High school level knowledge. Not college.

If you grew up in an area and play with all the people who are your same age and do the same thing (Martial Arts) and they are Black Belts you would think maybe they would all be close in the arts.

So when I saw this I just felt like putting it forth. The Time Line.

Regards, Gary

 

[The Kai]

Gary

I not angry actually, just at the end of my rope with the koan/riddle nonsense.

Honestly, start a seperate thread (suggested name Zen riddles with Gary)take your foolishness there-Please
Todd
P.S. I don't really know what a ding is....

 

[The Kai]

John,
I was just trying to show a time line. If you are in America and have been in the school system until you are 18. Most people would ask or think that you have High school level knowledge. Not college.

If you grew up in an area and play with all the people who are your same age and do the same thing (Martial Arts) and they are Black Belts you would think maybe they would all be close in the arts.

So when I saw this I just felt like putting it forth. The Time Line.

Regards, Gary

Gary
Cut to the chase, which of the Kenpo Seniors do You believe did'nt earn thier rank? Since that seems to be your motive. Also could you give us your short list of Kenpo people that you think eaned thier rank.
Asking questions that you only accept your answers to=Childish riddles
Todd

 

[GAB]

Gary
Cut to the chase, which of the Kenpo Seniors do You believe did'nt earn thier rank? Since that seems to be your motive. Also could you give us your short list of Kenpo people that you think eaned thier rank.
Asking questions that you only accept your answers to=Childish riddles
Todd

Todd,

It is a funny thing regarding rank. The person I am talking about is John Leoning.

The others all claim rank at a very young age. John was around all of them at the same time and age yet when he comes to America, at 31 years old he has no rank?

I was under the impression he was very good and very well ranked. He falls out with Kajukenbo and now he has no rank? Sure would like to here from Sonny Gascon.

Regards, Gary

 

[The Kai]

If you go back John Bishop gives an account and a rough timeline with John Leonning. Do you want to know if thier was a falling out-i.e. Leoning got his rank "pulled" for some infraction. Or do you think he should have been ranked higher than he was?


Todd

 

[Karazenpo]

*Biography from Soke Charles Fisher.


BIOGRAPHY OF JOHN C. LEONING
JOHN C. LEONING WAS BORN IN HAWAII ON MAY 3, 1927 AND THE HOLDER OF THE 8TH DEGREE BLACK BELT IN THE KAJUKENBO SYSTEM AND OPERATED THE NORTH AMERICAN KUNG-FU AND KARATE SCHOOL IN NORTH HOLLYWOOD, CALIFORNIA FOR MANY YEARS.
HIS TEACHER WAS SIJO (FOUNDER) ADRIANO EMPERADO ON THE BIG ISLAND OF HAWAII. THIS WAS A ROUGH STYLE WITH ROUGH TEACHING METHODS, DESIGNED TO CREATE FIGHTERS IN ANY ENVIRONMENT OR SITUATION. THAT CLASS IN HAWAII HAD MANY FUTURE GREAT TEACHERS---THESE INCLUDED MR. ED PARKER THE CREATOR OF KENPO KARATE, SIFU RICHARD BUSTILLO OF THE IMB ACADEMY OF TORRANCE, CALIFORNIA AND PROFESSOR "LUCKY" E. LUCIANO, A NOW RED SATIN/SILVER BELT--9TH DEGREE---SIFU OF THE SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA BRANCH B.C. MEXICO KAJUKENBO ASSOCIATION.
SIFU JOHN C. LEONING WAS AN EIGHT DEGREE RED AND WHITE STRIPE BELT (THE HIGHEST RANKING BLACK BELT IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA IN 1960) WITH TRAINING IN CHOY LI FAT KUNG-FU FROM SIFU SHARE K, LEW.
SIFU JOHN C. LEONING WAS CHARLES B. FISHER, YODAN--4TH DEGREE BLACK BELT TWENTIETH TEACHER.

CARLO BUNDA--A BLACK BELT IN KAJUKENBO WHO TRAINED UNDER JOHN C. LEONING, HACHIDAN --8TH DEGREE BLACK BELT WON THE FIRST INTERNATIONAL KARATE CHAMPIONSHIP AT LONG BEACH, CALIFORNIA HOSTED BY ED PARKER, SHICHIDAN--7TH DEGREE BLACK BELT.

SIFU LEONING USED TO SAY "TAKE IT EASY" SIFU LEONING USED TO CHANGE THE SETS ALL THE TIME, SO IF YOU WERE GOING ANY LENGTH OF TIME AND WHEN YOU RETURNED TO CLASS, YOU HAD TO LEARN THE SETS ALL OVER AGAIN. SIFU LEONING NEVER DID THAT WITH THE BASICS THOUGH.

THE REASON I WAS PROMOTED TO YODAN--4TH DEGREE BLACK BELT WAS SIFU LEONING KNEW MY EAST COAST TEACHER--DANIEL K. PAI, SHICHIDAN --7TH DEGREE BLACK BELT ALSO FROM HAWAII AND I ALSO KNEW ALL THE BASICS AND THE SETS.

SIFU LEONING WAS IN FILMS ABOUT FOUR YEARS WHEN HE WON A ROLE IN THE "KUNG-FU" T.V. SERIES ON STRENGTH OF HIS TALENTS IN THE MARTIAL ARTS. AMONG HIS FILMS WERE "PIPE DREAMS" AND HIS FINAL FILM WAS "KENTUCKY FRIED MOVIE".

SIFU LEONING WORKED FOR A JANITOR SERVICE AFTER THE KAJUKENBO CLASS WAS OVER. SIFU LEONING WAS A CATHOLIC. I WAS AT THE MASS (NO VIEWING BECAUSE THE CASKET WAS CLOSED) THE DAY HE WAS BURIED AND AT THE FUNERAL THE KAJUKENBO GROUP PERFORMED NAIHANCHI ONE "THE DANCE OF DEATH". HIS WIFE AND SON WERE THERE ALSO.

SIFU LEONING DIED AT THE AGE OF 50 ON WEDNESDAY MARCH 23, 1977 OF A HEART ATTACK AND IS BURIED AT FOREST LAWN IN THE HOLLYWOOD HILLS, CALIFORNIA.






--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[John Bishop]

If you go back John Bishop gives an account and a rough timeline with John Leonning. Do you want to know if thier was a falling out-i.e. Leoning got his rank "pulled" for some infraction. Or do you think he should have been ranked higher than he was?


Todd

OK GAB, I'll give you the time line I was given. In 1988 I was doing some historical research for my first Kajukenbo instructor (whose lineage was from the Leoning family of Kajukenbo). This was to make a family tree, and write a black belt hand book for our future upcoming black belts.
I talked to John Leoning's first black belt, Carlos Bunda. He told me that Leoning came to the mainland in 1958. I talked to Ed Parker. He verified the date of 1958. He also told me that Leoning was a "brown belt" when he first came here. He said he know's this because he called Sijo Emperado to "check him out", (competition you know) when Leoning opened his school. And Sijo told him that Leoning was a "brown belt". Ed said that Leoning later got his "black belt". I never asked how much "later". It really didn't matter to me at the time.
Bill Ryusaki also confirmed this information.
I then talked to Alan Reyes, who is a Kajukenbo historian. He grew up in Kajukenbo and his father Aleju Reyes was Sijo Emperado "scribe". In other words he recorded for Emperado all the "techniques", "black belt promotions", and other matters important to the Kajukenbo organization.
Alan told me that Leoning, like most of the other early Kajukenbo instructors on the mainland, was "not a black belt when he first arrived". He, like most of the others came here looking for jobs. When the opportunity arose to teach,they did. Like I said before, at the time he opened, there are only 2 karate schools in all of So. Calif.
It was not at all uncommon for "color belts" to teach in the 50's and 60's. Perfect example is Gracie Jujitsu in the 90's. Outside of the Gracie family, there was only 1 or 2 Gracie black belts in America. I personally know of 5 Gracie/Brazilian jujitsu schools in So. Calif. that were owned and operated by "color belts", in the 90's.
But, back to Leoning, since 1988 I've talked to many people about John, including his son. His history is discussed quite often in Kajukenbo circles, since he was the first Kajukenbo instructor to teach on the mainland. So, I have little reason to doubt the information I have. I'm sure he was a black belt by the time you encountered him in 1965. But the highest rank he ever obtained from in "Kajukenbo" from Sijo Emperado, was 5th degree.
Anyway, you can believe me or not. It dosen't matter to us in Kajukenbo what you choose to believe.

 

[kelly keltner]

So the answer to my post was yes. Could I please have a green rep point to relplace the red one I got for asking if the answer was no.


kelly

 

[John Bishop]

So the answer to my post was yes. Could I please have a green rep point to relplace the red one I got for asking if the answer was no.

kelly

Wow Kelly,
GAB thows out random statements that have nothing to do with the subject at hand. And when asked to clarify, he thows out statements about being in the Marine Corp or LAPD like that has anything to do with the topic. Then throws out some riddles that have nothing to do with the topic, and most of us here just shake out heads, and wonder what he's talking about.
But you seem to understand exactly the hidden questions in these random statements and riddles.
You have a true gift. In the future would you please translate any other ramblings GAB has. It would really save us a lot of time here.

p.s. You didn't get any Red rep points from me.

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Wow Kelly,
GAB thows out random statements that have nothing to do with the subject at hand....Then throws out some riddles that have nothing to do with the topic, and most of us here just shake out heads, and wonder what he's talking about.
But you seem to understand exactly the hidden questions in these random statements and riddles.
You have a true gift. In the future would you please translate any other ramblings GAB has. It would really save us a lot of time here.

p.s. You didn't get any Red rep points from me.

It must be the Kosho-Ryu secret code.