The Original Curiculum of Kajukenbo/Karazenpo

[GAB]

It must be the Kosho-Ryu secret code.

OFK, Yea Kelly has known me for more then a decade so he probably does know my way of rambling.

Joe, Thanks for the information off of Charles Fisher's site. I have had numerous contacts with the man.

John I have answered many of your questions and you have ignored many that I have asked.
I don't harp on them and I certainly am not worried about the various people shaking their head, are you in the same room while this is happening?

Thanks for the information about your contact with Edmund Parker and Bill Ryusaki, I would like to talk to John Leoning Jr. just because, no reason to try and clairify.

Several reasons I wrote and informed you of my past is because of your slights that you write at times, so I tell you so you will know these things.

Different strokes for different folks, you have to understand where I am coming from if you are an historian and you are truly trying to discover the truth and you find some discrepency like the age factor.

Lets look at that for one more time.

Regards, Gary

 

[GAB]

Hi all,

I was reading another thread and they are talking about the age, or the time in grade of the GM's etc. How many are now 8th, 9th, 10th Dans (head of system) and are not that old in age or time in grade.

Lets skip back to Hawaii, time zone 40s and 50s.

Pretty much a group of young men. Some were older but not out of their 30s by any means.

The age of the original 5 I don't think added up to 110 years for the founders of Kajukenbo. Probably be hard pressed to find any one in their 30s.

Lets take some prominent players.

William Chow born 1914, James Mitose born 1916, Adriano Emperado born 1926, John Leoning born 1927, Edmund Parker born 1931, Victor Gascon born 1933, Walter Godin born 1937...

Lets go to the 40s, James Mitose Retires (30 years old!!) from teaching and leaves the school to Thomas Young 1946/47.

William Chow is 32 years old...

Kajukenbo is being formulated by men in there very young 20s. Edmund Parker is only 16, (same age as Joe Emperado +/- 1 year or so) Victor Gascon is 14 tops and Walter Godin is 10 years.

John Leoning is 20 years, depends on the month...

Lets go the 58 when John Leoning comes to North Hollywood/Burbank area, he is 31 years old, Edmund Parker is about 27, Victor Gascon is 25 and Walter Godin is 21. Joe Emperado is, sadly dead.

Ok now we are on the mainland and it is 1960 and the three messengers come bearing gifts, oops wrong story. And the story teller has been in the Marine Corps for one (1) year I am 18.

I will stop here and ask others if they want to put in some times and dates and then I will get back to you about Sifu John Leoning, not being a Black Belt at 31 years of age. That is how old he was when he came here.

Regards, Gary

Kai this is for You I wrote this.

John isn't it an interesting time line???

I find it truly informative.

Lets look at all the explosion that occured.

After James Mitose retires, everyone else take off like a roman candle and claiming all sorts of great lineage, and removing the only real Master from there lineage.

I think that is in itself very informative.

Shake your head all you want, it won't go away. Mitose is the reason for all this, criminal or not. Like the rest are angels...

HASP circa 1960...Gary in the Marine Corps in Hawaii...I have given you some clues about my background for a reason. We will be getting to my LAPD career...

We are getting there. Any one want to tell us what the letters HASP stand for?

Regards, Gary

 

[BallistikMike]

HASP - Hawaiian Armed Services Police

Googled police and HASP and 1960 and came up with that.

 

[BallistikMike]

Kai this is for You I wrote this.

John isn't it an interesting time line???

I find it truly informative.

Lets look at all the explosion that occured.

After James Mitose retires, everyone else take off like a roman candle and claiming all sorts of great lineage, and removing the only real Master from there lineage.

I think that is in itself very informative.

Shake your head all you want, it won't go away. Mitose is the reason for all this, criminal or not. Like the rest are angels...

HASP circa 1960...Gary in the Marine Corps in Hawaii...I have given you some clues about my background for a reason. We will be getting to my LAPD career...

We are getting there. Any one want to tell us what the letters HASP stand for?

Regards, Gary

To claim that the developers are removing the only real "master" from their lineage is a bit harsh.

People take things in different directions when they get a feel for what they want and where they are going. The men that developed Kajukenbo took what they learned and tested it on themselves and the streets of a very brutal Hawaii.

I have seen no proof of anything saying that J. Mitose was a master of anything. I have seen more proof that he was a student of a student of a student JUST LIKE US ALL!

If people are so worried about lineage and black belts and "Master" certificates go buy some of them off the web. What most of us are interested in are people here on the forums who have traded blood and sweet with these "old" timers and the great stories and lessons they have learned.

I would also like to say something about the people throwing the bombs around about being Police, ExPolice, Ex Marines, Ex Soldiers, Bouncers ... etc.

That proves absolutely nothing of what self-defense is. The private citizen is the true practitioner of self-defense.

1 - we dont have weapons (M4,M1A Tanks) or satallite to help us on the battlefield
2 - we dont have radios and the hugest gang on the streets "local LEO's" that come at our call and fireams/batons where ever we go.
3 - we dont have back up of other bouncers, friendly patrons and LEO's that show up

As a citizen we are left to are own merits to survive, essentially we are the true "solo" warrior. Granted we arent willingly going into sistuations every waking hour like the above mentioned hero's.

What is important is that I chose who is a good teacher based on ability, knowledge, sharing the knowledge and experience.

So I have my own riddle about the Kosho Ryu guys "Why is Mr. Jucknik so good at fighting, why does he hit hard. It isnt because of sitting in a cell with a prisoner, it is because of experience. Where did that experience come from?

 

[The Kai]

When we llok at the explosion after Mitose "retired"; lets not forget the sinificant contributions of William Chow

GAB
So you are saying that no one in your opinion deserves the rank or respect they have recieved? Whom in your book is worthy?
Todd

 

[GAB]

When we llok at the explosion after Mitose "retired"; lets not forget the sinificant contributions of William Chow

GAB
So you are saying that no one in your opinion deserves the rank or respect they have recieved? Whom in your book is worthy?
Todd

Todd, Do not say that, I have stated that I have great respect for them all.

It is the obverse of the coin that we are talking about.

I have stated that if Mitose is the spark. Willam Chow is the log that kept the fires burning. You notice he is the oldest of the group?
I like and have great respect for Kajukenbo, but I don't care for all the politics and I am sure most will agree it is a sad part of the Martial arts.

Hear this, if you believe William Chow are you going to believe Parker?
Listen and you will learn...

Kai you have stated you have been to Hanshi's Gathering, Why don't you take a stab at answering Ballistikmike, regarding his (Hanshi) capabilities.

I will say this Regarding Hanshi, he eats, breaths and most of his waking moments are consumed by MA and not just one style. He watchs something at night prior to hitting the sack and then he meditates on it and falls asleep with it on his mind when he wakes he usually is still on the same movements.

He tells us all to do that if we really want to learn, at the dojo I work out at, it is not uncommon for students to video their drill and watch it later at their leisure, great way to learn.
He is totally immersed into the arts and has been that way most of his adult life.

Regards, Gary

 

[The Kai]

[
It is the obverse of the coin that we are talking about.

Did you mean inverse of the coin, or to be clear or lucid the opposite side of the coin? How is it the opposite of what we are talking about??

I like and have great respect for Kajukenbo, but I don't care for all the politics and I am sure most will agree it is a sad part of the Martial arts.

?? Were in kajukenbo long enough to see the politics??

Hear this, if you believe William Chow are you going to believe Parker?
Listen and you will learn...

I hear ya, I just don't know what the hell you are trying to say, believe Parker/Chow about what?

Kai you have stated you have been to Hanshi's Gathering, Why don't you take a stab at answering Ballistikmike, regarding his (Hanshi) capabilities.

Actually i thought the question was directed towards you, but as i have stated before i think hanshi is one hell of a teacher, and a fantastic martial artist
I will say this Regarding Hanshi, he eats, breaths and most of his waking moments are consumed by MA and not just one style. He watchs something at night prior to hitting the sack and then he meditates on it and falls asleep with it on his mind when he wakes he usually is still on the same movements.

He tells us all to do that if we really want to learn, at the dojo I work out at, it is not uncommon for students to video their drill and watch it later at their leisure, great way to learn.

So now you are studing Kosho yourself??

P.S. I know you don't like it whwn your posts are cut up, but the thought process was so dijointed I need to keep it clear.

He is totally immersed into the arts and has been that way most of his adult life.

So there are 2 people on your list of worthy martial artists
1.) Sifu Leonnning< I think so at least
2.) Hansi Juchnik
Todd

Regards, Gary

 

[GAB]

Hi Todd,

We are not able to relate, I am going to let this go for now and catch it later.

For example...Chow said one thing about Parkers Belts, Parker said something different. So who are you going to believe.
Hopefully some others have some input. Joe have you anything you can run by Sijo Sonny Gascon, maybe he can add a few things. Maybe you had better not, I don't want your relations with John Bishop to go south.

I have only had differences of opinion regarding the actual belt rankings I say John was well ranked, John Bishop said not. I said Ed Parker was not as high as he professed and others say he was.

I feel they are all good Martial Artists, we just arn't on the same page regarding rank.

Obverse is correct, reverse is what you are talking about. It was a play on words, I am saying he was higher then they are saying, please read it again.

Do I have to be running for President to follow what is happening in the politicial arena. Just look at the different Mon's that are in Kajukenbo.

I saw Hanshi today and talked, do you know what all Hanshi teach's???

Explain to me what Kosho is? How many tapes has Hanshi made? How many DVD's?
How many are in the various Martial arts? Are they all Kosho?

I do FMA at the present. How many different styles do I do in FMA?
How many are there? How many systems are out there?

I have told you many times I cross train...

Regards, Gary

 

[Karazenpo]

Remember guys, rank is so subjective that it's really not worth pursuing the who was a black belt and when and what degree, is this legit is that legit, what may be accepted as gold in one organization could be coal in another. Remember Mr. Parker saying: "What degree of death are you after you're dead?" Mitose started this whole kenpo/kempo thing and he had no rank. Look how and where and who was on the committee who awarded Funakoshi his renshi and technically, he's the 'father of the black belt ranking system' for karate and his 5th dan is still controversial and talked about today. Chow self promoted himself to 15th degree black belt with the title of 'Master of the Universe', no one gave him any crap over it. As long as your rank is accepted in your school, schools or organization that's all that should matter. Ed Parker was/is the head and founder of EPAK and the Ed Parker studios, there is no one higher than he in his organization, so whether he was promoted to 10th or took the 10th, I really don't have a problem with it. Fred Villari is the head and founder of Shaolin Kempo Karate and the Villari Self Defense Centers & Studios, no one is higher than he in his organization, Nick Cerio, George Pesare, Sonny Gascon, John Leoning, Adriano Emperado, Thomas Young, Ralph Castro, Al Tracy, Thomas Barros Mitose, Bruce Juchnik and the list goes on. It's all relative and subjective. Rank is primarily based on opinions and you know what they say: "Opinions are like a-holes, everybody has one", LOL. Respectfully, Professor Joe

 

[kelly keltner]

yeh gotta agree with you about opinions.


kelly

 

[kelly keltner]

me knowest who it was who gave me da red

kelly

 

[BallistikMike]

...

He tells us all to do that if we really want to learn, at the dojo I work out at, it is not uncommon for students to video their drill and watch it later at their leisure, great way to learn.
He is totally immersed into the arts and has been that way most of his adult life.

Regards, Gary

I agree that he did immerse himself into the art he was practicing at the time. So much so that when he was with the Tracy's we would go bar hopping looking for fights to test if the stuff worked. That is from his mouth and written. I started to get into the Kosho Ryu system nearly 10 years ago but when I heard that I nearly vomitted.

Im sorry but there are many ways to gain experience in the real world, going out to bars and picking fights is not one of them!

ah well... I will move on because I am about to tick off some very respected people here on the boards and I respect them for the years of study they put in and I would like to share with this forum a bit more then a single month lol


::: going back to lurking and learning :::

 

[GAB]

Hi Balistikmike,

Hanshi will even say he just didn't know any better, are you saying he did not do that or he did do that.

Regarding the numerous systems you read about the fighters and the studio guys.

Motobu was a fighter, Chow was one, looking for trouble or starting it just to test themselves against someone else.

When I was in the service it was like that, all the time, every different port. You are getting into it with other servicemen, my ship is better then yours, or recon is tougher then the sub's etc. Young and dumb.

Gunny Highway was taken from a real person, (movie heartbreak ridge) I am as sure of that as I am writing this.

Are you saying that when Hanshi changed his way's and started down a different path you were sickened?

Like a bad guy finding religion and becoming born again? I think of another movie, Unforgiven, real people real life stuff.

You are not going to hurt my feelings, so talk, just don't be rude, or call people names. I am sure it will be fine.

Regards, Gary

 

[GAB]

Hi Balistikmike,

Never forget the Name...Martial...as in war... That is what is so interesting, it is not called sports arts, or neo martial.

War is hell don't go there if you can help it, a movie about a real war hero "To hell and back" or any of the make believe heros, it is about killing and fighting and the tough time they had when they returned to 'civil' ian life.

I think it was Aristotle who said 'it is easy to instill the fighting and killing in man, but it is very hard to remove it from him'...Paraphrased.

I believe that very much, when I was dealing with the guys who came back from the Vietnam conflict on the streets of L. A. it was very bad and sad.

The people they abused most was their so called "loved ones".

You still see it today, one of the reasons they have installed so many laws against domestic violence.

Regards, Gary

 

[The Kai]

Hanshi has 100 of tapes out (I don't know about dvds). 4/5 books. I am familiar with the arts with in the art.

What Hanshi did in the past is the past - I've heard of worse.

 

[kelly keltner]

I agree that he did immerse himself into the art he was practicing at the time. So much so that when he was with the Tracy's we would go bar hopping looking for fights to test if the stuff worked. That is from his mouth and written. I started to get into the Kosho Ryu system nearly 10 years ago but when I heard that I nearly vomitted.

Im sorry but there are many ways to gain experience in the real world, going out to bars and picking fights is not one of them!

ah well... I will move on because I am about to tick off some very respected people here on the boards and I respect them for the years of study they put in and I would like to share with this forum a bit more then a single month lol


::: going back to lurking and learning :::

There are many who are saddled with the moniker of martial arts master who have tested there skills in one fashion or another. You have to look at it in its context, and realize it for what it is and move on. Yes Hanshi got into a lot of fights in his youth. So did many others. Does this mean that what he teaches is invalid. I would say no in as much if I were to relate what others have supposedly done.
What about these peoples pasts
1. Rudy Turlinden
2. Morihei Ushieba
3.Florio Villabraille
4. Choki Motobu
5. an yes, James Mitose
one of these practioners was supposedly in Manchuria lopping off peoples heads in the early 20th century, but if you talk to the people that participate in his system you'd think he was god.
Another was credited with 12 kills in his native country.
still another is famous for kills with his death stick.
one was jailed for conspiracy to commit murder.
another killed a boxer.
I could go on and list many martial artist who have had their share of indiscretions or a colorful past.
So one guy getting into a few fights and then growing out of it. Then admitting that it was not a part of his life that he was proud of.
That makes you want to vomit?

Put in perspective with history its a minor transgression and nothing in comparision of the old dojo wars and the exploits of people like count Dante.

kelly

 

[The Kai]

Gab

"For example...Chow said one thing about Parkers Belts, Parker said something different. So who are you going to believe"

So now you don't think Ed parker deserved his rank??
Again I am sorry about busting your chops on the Riddle/koan bull***, but I am sure everyone appreciates a little more clarity
Todd

 

[GAB]

Gab

"For example...Chow said one thing about Parkers Belts, Parker said something different. So who are you going to believe"

So now you don't think Ed parker deserved his rank??
Again I am sorry about busting your chops on the Riddle/koan bull***, but I am sure everyone appreciates a little more clarity
Todd

Hi Todd, I believe he did after he put his many years in, I don't believe he had it in the first place.

I was there in the 60's when all the conflict was going on and I remember the stuff that was happening. I lived in North Hollywood until I was 17 then went into the service came out and continued to live there until I was 27.

It dosen't matter at this date and time about that (belt, grn, brn, blu or blk)...

I only went there because others were bad mouthing Hanshi.. Hanshi earned his rank and then he was tested by Mitose and of all the ones that went to Mitose he was given the keys.

That is the truth...As in the keys to his Kosho, go out and continue as you see fit, based on your knowledge and desire. He told Hanshi there will be people who will be nitpickers don't worry about it etc...

Hanshi did a lot of soul searching and now more then 25 years after he met the man he is still standing tall. And I might add, the Hanshi of the system...

Regards, Gary

 

[The Kai]

GAB

So you believe that by tearing down others like Parker, Emperado and various seniors with in the Kenpo community, you will get more respect for Hanshi Juchnik?

Why do you belteve that there cannot be respect across the board? Opinions will very, but opinions are just that.

You believe in Hanshi? Than that is enough.

Ed Parker more than earned a rightfull place at the top (many times over), your nitpicking won't take anything away.

Again just my opinion
Todd

 

[GAB]

GAB

So you believe that by tearing down others like Parker, Emperado and various seniors with in the Kenpo community, you will get more respect for Hanshi Juchnik?

Why do you belteve that there cannot be respect across the board? Opinions will very, but opinions are just that.

You believe in Hanshi? Than that is enough.

Ed Parker more than earned a rightfull place at the top (many times over), your nitpicking won't take anything away.

Again just my opinion
Todd

Hi Todd, I think, if you live in a glass house you should not throw stones.

Regarding EPAK there are a lot of people still out on that, but my prior post covered it.

I am not nitpicking, I am stating what Chow said and what Parker said.

So I guess two wrongs don't make it right.

Regards, Gary