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John Bishop said:I spent last saturday visiting with Sijo Emperado, and we talked a little bit about John Leoning and Sonny Gascon. I was under the impression that Gascon was a first generation Kajukenbo black belt, because his name is listed under Sijo Emperado on our family tree. Sijo told me that Gascon was in fact John Leoning's black belt, but that he came under Sijo Emperado after Leoning died in 77. This tells us that there was still a relationship between Karazempo and Kajukenbo at that time.
...As to the techniques that John Leoning and Sonny Gascon taught, they are somewhat differant. (My first Kajukenbo instructor was from the Leoning lineage, and I know some of Leoning's first black belts, so I've seen their techniques.) I've never seen Karazempo techniques, so I can't say whether there are slightly or vastly differant then Leoning's.
The best example of the "Original Method" is in the 2 video series produced by GM Gary Forbach. The "Panther Productions" series,and the "World Kajukenbo Organization" series. All the taping of the WKO series were personally supervised by Sijo Emperado to make sure they were "original teachings".
I'm not sure about all the techniques from the 50s-60's. But by the end of the 60s there were: 14 Palama Sets, 21 Punch Counters, 15 Grab Arts, 13 Club Counters, 15 Knife Counters, 26 Alphabets, 8 Two Man Counters, 6 Three Man Counters, 1 Four Man Counter.
GAB said:Sonny Gascon, Bill Ryusaki, Dave Kamalani, Julio Blacquera, Walter Godin.
I don't personally remember this. I am just playing at it. Because you want to go there rather then answer my thoughts. Or deal with the apparent flaw that I have observed.:asian:....
I am 63 this month John, every one knows me around this area. Call my friend and Sensei Pat Kelly or a new Sensei I just started to go to also, Tim Evans. They are in the Elk Grove phone book.
I have nothing to prove John, I have been there and done that, end of this comment for now. Could we get back to the time line?? Thank you.
Regards, Gary
John Bishop said:Answer#1
Leoning's school in No. Hollywood, Ca. was funded by the Hawaiian actor Poncy Ponce. Pictured is Poncy Ponce, and the actress Connie Stevens.
Poncy Ponce, Connie Stevens, and Robert Conrad starred in the 50's-60's TV detective show "Hawaiian Eye".
Robert Conrad, who was a student of John Leoning, was to use his Kajukenbo skills later in his next T.V. series; "Wild Wild West".
In fact when Conrad (as James West) fought actor Don Stroud, it was the first time two Kajukenbo stylists fought each other in a TV show or movie. Don Stroud had been a student of Sijo Emperado's at the Palama Settlement school.
Answer#2
John's earliest black belts in California were not until 1962-63.
Carlos Bunda and Bill Ryusaki were the first ones.
Answer #3
Bill Ryusaki broke away around 62-63 and took several of the students with him. His most famous student is Benny "the Jet" Urquidez. And yes he claims John Leoning as his Kajukenbo/Kenpo teacher.
Karazenpo said:Personally, I gave up a long time ago of looking for exact dates in the rankings of the old seniors and for that matter, dates for anything back then. I found two dates of when Funakoshi introduced karate to Japan, two dates on when Mitose came to Hawaii and 3 ages when he went to Japan to study-3, 4 and 5. Two dates when Sifu Leoning brought Kajukenbo to the mainland (1957, 1958). Charles Fisher has Sifu Leoning listed as the highest ranking Kajukenbo black belt on the mainland in 1960-8th dan, check out his website. We finally get a date on Chow's black belt years ago only to find out it was not signed by Mitose which we were led to believe for so many years but by Professor Thomas Young of which I've heard several different reasons why that was done. Four dates listed for New England's first kenpo school- 1960, 1961, 1962 and 1963. At least two dates listed for the founding of Gm. Fred Villari's organization-1968, 1971. Three dates recorded for Boddhidharma hooking up at the Shaolin Temple according to various sources. Several dates of when Kajukenbo added it's various arts from 1947 to the 60's, take your pick, several years of which Mr. Parker started his revisions of the Mitose/Chow Kenpo that span the late 50's to the early 60's and the beat goes on..........
As far as black belts go, I now sincerely believe this black belt thing of legitimate rank and so forth is a product of the newer generations of kenpo practitioners. Let's take a look at the old and start with Funokoshi. Here's an excerpt I used on this forum on another topic:
"Of course, the Butoku-kai continued to sanction head teachers directly. This was not without controversy, however, since Konishi sat on the board that awarded Funakoshi his renshi and Konishi had been Funakoshi's student. Of course, Konishi had inside ties to the Butoku-kai by virtue of birth, something the Okinawan Funakoshi could not have."
So, now we got the 'father of all black belts', the first karate black belt in history and that's how he got it, not to mention a godan renshi ranking! It's really funny because his student, Konishi, mentioned above, only held ranking in a Japanese sword art and back then the 'Kai' only hosted the Japanese jiu jitsu, aikido and sword related arts but has since expanded. Later, the Butoku-kai got the reputation of being a 'paper mill'. There is controversary on when the late Mr. Parker received his shodan from Professor Chow and the number one person who started all this Hawaiian derived kenpo thing, James M. Mitose was never awarded a black belt period. This is not at all meant to knock anyone but to make a point. The point being, back then, black belt was very subjective with very loose requirements. I also believe most back then, if not all, weren't even tested for the rank. Curriculums, as we know, were very limited with an emphasis on drilling the basics, self defense techniques which could be expanded upon by borrowing from the basics and just one form to start the whole thing, Naihanchi. I would venture to say many donned the belt prior to any 'official' promotion by their instructor when they began to publically propagate the art and received the ranking later on down the road when they proved themselves worthy. No one ever complained about it back then or now, so perhaps that was an accepted method of how it was done in that time. This happened all over, including Okinawa which took it a step further with the 'airport promotions'. In those early years in Hawaii and then in kenpo's introduction to the mainland it was like this saying I picked up from KenpoJoe Rebelo, "The one eyed man is King in the land of the blind." If they weren't black belts in kenpo with only three karate schools in all of southern California, two of which were kenpo, then who were?, lol. As the 70's approached in my area (New England) there was all this talk about self promotion and legitimate rank because of Fred Villari going from a nidan under Nick Cerio to a 10th in record time, surpassing, not only his instructor but his instructor's instructor. The only problem was some of the most vehement Villari critics also did their own rank thing, only it was anywhere from three to six thousand miles away. Fred Villari's problem was that he sh_t in his own backyard.......trained in Rhode Island, lived and worked in Massachusetts and set up his first schools in New England. So, what I try to do in my research is to just show an accurate lineage of our systems, which at times, can also be difficult but it gives an idea of who and where we came from and what went into our art.
__________________
GAB said:Hi Joe,
Good post, thanks.
The part about the "one eyed man in the land of the blind" is right on.
GM Estalilla in Kabaroan, use's that also, for all the various arts that came out of the FMA. Lot more Islands then Hawaii and as much controversy x 50, I have found.
Regards, Gary
I met some people from that group at a Kajukenbo gathering, but it's been 12-15 years ago. I don't know what thier up to now days.KENPOJOE said:BTW,Mr. Bishop, you will see the Kamalani line mentioned on some of the Kajukenbo lineage charts, are you familiar with anyone from that particular group?
KENPOJOE
I was just talking to GM Carlos Bunda last night. He's one of our legendary fighters. We've been searching for old footage of his fighting. Priceless would be his victory over Chuck Norris, where he broke Chuck's cup (ouch) with a classic kenpo groin kick.KENPOJOE said:Hi Folks!
Mr.Bishop, Thanks again for an informative post! Really enjoyed the pic too! Got to see if "Hawaiian eye" is on DVD now!
Now I realize who poncy ponce is! I've heard hawaiian martial artists mention him [Tom Bolden immediately comes to mind] and now I know who they were taking about! I believe I have footage of Carlos Bunda fighting at the 1964 IKC and I have Sonny Gascon teaching at Mr. Parker's studio [i believe].
KENPOJOE
Yes, too many Urquidez's to mention. Arnold, Ruben, Smiley, Benny, Lilly, brother in law Blinky Rodriguez etc, etc. A lot of good fighters came out of Ryu-Dojo, including Cecil Peoples.KENPOJOE said:In regards to Bill Ryusaki, lets not forget that several of the Urquidez bros all studied with him [Arnold,Ruben,...] It was a pleasure to meet Bill Ryusaki in 2001 at the gathering of the eagles and interview him as well as have him do a short demo on one of Ted Tabura's Black Belts who was available. KENPOJOE
KENPOJOE said:Dear Gary,
It's interesting that you mention David Kamalani....I worked with a "Larry Hooker" in Bakersfield,CA who was from Kamalami's lineage and the art had definite taken a different "slant" perhaps from the original kajukenbo format[probably due to Kamalani dying in a car accident at a young age]...when i returned to the Bakersfield area much later, I found the Mr. Hooker had "retired" and one of his Black Belts was teaching at a local health club and we went over some of the Karazenpo/Shaolin Kempo format that I had learned and taught a fw of the Combinations such as #3 with the ending and they do NOTHING like what I had known as Karazenpo except for some of the basics. If you ever see 2 vertical bamboo stalks entwined with vines and the karazenpo name it will the Kamalani lineage.
Thank you for mentioning him!
BTW,Mr. Bishop, you will see the Kamalani line mentioned on some of the Kajukenbo lineage charts, are you familiar with anyone from that particular group?
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE
GAB said:Hi all, I think we have wandered off of the original thread.
Will we be able to get some input from the Sijo Gascon side of this evolution among the various participants?
I wrote to Sijo Gascon, but have not received a reply, maybe my reputation precedes me and I will not get an answer...LOL
Joe maybe you could try and get some more information regarding the time in North Hollywood and some of his thoughts regarding that time frame.
From what I have read several of the sisters of each of the participants married these group of guys, it would be interesting to know the interrelations of this group and what has become of there progeny.
Regards, Gary
i have to agree with Pro Joe here. Gary, you may receive a response from sijo gascon's assistant about your question if he doesn't personally resply. this is certainly a big MAY. I don't guarantee you anything.Karazenpo said:Hi Gary, I will see Sijo Gascon at the end of January and ask. Sijo doesn't return e-mails unless he knows you, it's his perrogative and in these days, I don't blame him at all, lol, but it is nothing personal against you. Other than that, he is very personable and outgoing and enjoys talking of the history as much as we do. "Joe"
Hi KENPOJOE,KENPOJOE said:Dear Gary,
Glad you like the comment!
You mention GM Estalilla and both Ed Planas and Huk Planas are both student of him, So I might have heard it from "Huk"!
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE
Hi Folks!Karazenpo said:Hi Joe, maybe this will help on #3 combination. When I studied at Gm. Pesare's school in 1978, #3 was #3 in the sequence of combinations and was the counterpart of the #3 that Shaolin Kempo uses that I believe Cerio had modified when he taught Villari. However, it was against two opponents (one in front and one holding you in a double arm pin from behind), You would duck a punch to the head by dropping into a right kneeling stance, facing 9 o'clock but looking 12 o'clock while simultaneously delivering a front two knuckle punch (horizontal fist) to the groin w/ the right (this would also release you from the hold from behind), as you come back up you immediately go into a right 'cup & saucer' ( left fist over right fist) which was a full power right driving elbow to the opponent's body behind you. You would then thrown a right uppercut to the opponent's slumped over chin (from the preceding groin shot) with a simultaneous left driving elbow to the rear opponent and then cross and cover, looking in both directions at the downed opponents as a check. When I started formally taking classes again in 2003 at Gm. Pesare's the combination hadn't changed, duck and punch, elbow to the rear, uppercut, cross and cover. I'm positive because it was one of the combinations I did for my 7th dan test there. The only difference was it was now numbered numeral 1, not 3 anymore. My understanding is that this was one of the original combinations Pesare taught in the 60's when he brought the system out here. Take care, my friend and see you at the end of January in Marlboro. Happy Holidays, "Joe"
PS: I,too, love that line: "The one eyed man is king in the land of the blind", LOL.
KENPOJOE said:Hi Folks!
Dear Joe,
I have seen that version of Combo#3 as well as a couple of variations from Art Lapham who trained w/ Paul Botelho and Jim Speights as well as learning the Cerio/Villari version with the takedown. When GM Gascon went over the first 5 Combinations they looked nothing like what more like the master key moves to EPAK techniques like "Flashing mace","Leaping crane" etc...I distinctly remembering both im and I immediately recognizing the variation on these techniques in the combos and commenting on it. Later that night we were asked to demonstrate them and i found myself instantly going into "flashing mace" because it was so similar!We also saw some combos that still looked the same though [like the villari versions of #4 and #16] All the more reason that a video on the combinations needs to be done to clarify the origins!
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE
Hi Joe's,Karazenpo said:Thanks for the info., Joe. I would love to see a video produced on this information. We should speak to Sijo Gascon and Professor Rash and see what they think. It's supply and demand but I'll say one thing, the demand will be through the roof. As you know, Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu is the mother system of a great number of kempo practitioners today and they're all asking the same question: 'What is the original kempo of our system?" Take care & have a very "Merry Christmas", Joe & Kathy
GAB said:Hi Joe's,
I feel that the simularities between Bill Gates and publishing are very important, when you publish you are open to comment. Some of the time it is good and some of the time it is bad but all the time it is about the person who published.
So what do I mean?
Why are some so concerned as to not publish? And then some are so desirous as to publish even if the homework is not done. Apple and Microsoft...
Different strokes for different folks...
What I find interesting is that both the Sijos of these two systems we are talking about (Kajukenbo and Karazenpo) have not published much of their own thoughts or system...
Are they afraid of critics? Are they insecure about their own background???
Maybe before they are gone we will see some written material or dvd's or ???
Or maybe it is their way of keeping the lid on??? Closet type of mentality???
I am sure after they are gone there will be quite a bit written...But then it will be all hearsay, won't it???
Regards, Gary