The Importance Of Ground Skills
- Thread starter SaulGoodman
- Start date
Well a cop is very different then someone with a hobby. They are actually going to need to use those skills in real life situations, most of us are not.
In the end whether it is martial arts or some other activity we do the things that we enjoy and care about. No one can possibly train everything in every way, so we pick and choose what matters. The reality is most of us don't train to restrain someone outside of the gym, we do it for fun and as a way to stay in shape. If you do have a lifestyle or profession that requires you to have certain skills, then you should defiantly get those skills. If not, who cares, have fun doing what you do.
OP
OP
SaulGoodman
Green Belt
So are you saying that only cops need groundfighting skills to subdue felons and rest of us don't need to worry about it? I consider my training way more than a "hobby", sure it's fun but I'm also training for that horrible moment if/when some malevolent comes into my life and wants to hurt me or a loved one. My aim is to have the best chance I can have in surviving that kind of situation and IMO not having any kind of ground game is a problem.
And if that is your goal train with that in mind. I doubt that someone taking something like Kyodo cares.
But keep in mind you can't do everything, how much you can do depends on your commitment level to martial arts vs other things in life. Draw the line wherever suits you.
I love wrestling and grappling, its what I do every single day. But if someone doesn't want to, that's their choice. Same as if they don't want to train striking, sticks, blades, firearms, etc.
PiedmontChun
Purple Belt
Reading between the lines a bit, but no unfriendliness intended
Going back and reading the OP, you did pose the question "how would you use WC to control the guy?" Taking that at face value and trying to answer honestly, after all, scenarios like this die the death of a thousand qualifications......If I did have to chase after someone and stop them, I would not be beholden to whatever policies LEO's have; I'd have to be able to legally defend the level of force used as a civilian though. I'd probably kick the back of the leg, sweep, neck control, some form of arm lock. If it ended up on the ground like it did here, I would do my best to not let that guy have control of my neck from below and would try to get back to my feet. In terms of trying to get a complete submission without injury being the goal, WC is not the best toolset, not whatsoever.
Regarding your other post bashing your experience with an LT lineage "anti-grappling" techniques in the past, that stinks someone misled you and oversold the techniques / concepts.
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Yes you are right, but in the U.S. they don't always apply equally. I've seen white people do things to police officers that would almost guarantee a black doing the same thing would go to jail.
Just to add to this. If a black man can get arrested for drinking ice tea, then don't expect any of the other issues of black male citizens and police officers to be something that applies to any ethnicity.
I'm not against cops because I have friends and family that are cops which also gives me some insight on what goes on in the police force such as profiling and tactics used to "scare criminals out of hiding." Black men specifically just need to understand that not every cop is going to be good one so try not to do stuff that will make the bad cops feel like they have "justification" for doing something
In the video of the police officer punching the guy in the face and using the taser. That action was probably as a result of the cop being put in a head lock. For me personally, as a civilian mindset I would probably do the same thing if someone put me in a headlock. A headlock has a different feel of danger than someone just running away.
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Gnarlie
Master of Arts
I will freely admit here that I have zero experience with US Law Enforcement outside of what I see in the media and here on this forum.
There's certainly nothing in the original post video that leads me to believe that the cops actions are racially motivated. I would expect similar treatment for a white person resisting arrest as violently as the person in the video was.
I realise in retrospect that with my 'rules 1,2 and 3' post I made a point similar to the 'all lives matter' response to 'black lives matter', a response which misses the whole point and detracts from the issue at hand, so I'd like to acknowledge that that doesn't make what you said any less true. I'm sure there are differences in police treatment of ethnic minorities, and I'm just as sure that white privilege makes me slightly blind to that. I wish the world wasn't like it is.
I'm not in a position to generalise. I appreciate your viewpoint and experiences. Thanks.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
Nope shouldn't have toweled him from mount. I can sympathise with the cop but he still did thevwrong thing.
Now what cop should have gone for was scarf hold. Because it is harder to be swept from and a lot easier on the knees.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
Pro tip.Reading between the lines a bit, but no unfriendliness intended
Going back and reading the OP, you did pose the question "how would you use WC to control the guy?" Taking that at face value and trying to answer honestly, after all, scenarios like this die the death of a thousand qualifications......If I did have to chase after someone and stop them, I would not be beholden to whatever policies LEO's have; I'd have to be able to legally defend the level of force used as a civilian though. I'd probably kick the back of the leg, sweep, neck control, some form of arm lock. If it ended up on the ground like it did here, I would do my best to not let that guy have control of my neck from below and would try to get back to my feet. In terms of trying to get a complete submission without injury being the goal, WC is not the best toolset, not whatsoever.
Regarding your other post bashing your experience with an LT lineage "anti-grappling" techniques in the past, that stinks someone misled you and oversold the techniques / concepts.
Control of the neck from the bottom is almost always nothing. You need to watch out for control with their legs. This is even for things like rear naked chokes.
Gnarlie
Master of Arts
Your response has nothing to do with what I posted DB. It may have been wrong but there is nothing to suggest racial motivation.
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drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
Your post had nothing to do with any subject at all.
It did not address racism.
It did not address misuse of force.
Or even what tactics the cop could have used wing chun or otherwise.
All it addressed was whether ma freak was an American cop. Which not only wasn't the topic but ironically specifically stated as not the topic.
So i thought i would add some nuance to thst particular area of discussion. Otherwise i think the racism motivation was wrong as well. You jump in mount of course you want to bash people. That is what is so good about mount.
You are correct again. The rules that I were told to me don't apply to just one group. It's just difficult to see things like this unless you know someone it has happened to or unless you have a personal connection that allows you to see the difference then you probably won't see it or even notice it, but the day you see you'll be like WTF. It's just the way the world is, all messed up with little pockets of happiness. It's better than what it used to be so those small pockets of happiness are much larger than they were in the past. The more people talk about it the more aware they'll be of it. The more people make friends with other people from different backgrounds the better things will be.
Gnarlie
Master of Arts
Whatever dude. This is an off-topic nonversation. I'm not going to continue it.
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Police officers don't need 'fighting skills' whether ground ones or not, they need 'arresting', controlling', 'pacifying' and 'handcuffing' type skills, they have the equipment, depending on the country, to do this. Armed officers have to be aware that if grappling with a suspect on the ground their weapon could be snatched, even unarmed officers have to take care their equipment is not used against them. A police officer carries more on their body than most people. There are considerations that police officers have that don't apply to civilians as well.
Using anything with a police officer to prove that a particular style is necessary isn't go to work, police style works for police work.
Using anything with a police officer to prove that a particular style is necessary isn't go to work, police style works for police work.
PiedmontChun
Purple Belt
That's a good point. I did notice that the neck control the guy had from below was with one arm only, but it was enough that it kept the cop's weight forward for a good while where he was unable to use his own arms to control the civilian. The guy below had his legs together versus being in a guard type position to the cop had the dominant position as far as leg / body placement. I think letting the guy wrap the cop's neck like that, maybe not such a big deal if you are skilled in BJJ but for most guys it could be a real problem.
I have a BJJ white belt friend who had his own comments on this very video. His opinion was that the cop did multiple movements no one would instinctively know how to do without grappling experience, and was likely at least a high level BJJ white belt of some variety. That's secondhand and not an assessment I can weigh in on at all, but thought worth mentioning.
I don't think that for a police officer knowing any martial art can be a bad thing especially if they practice regularly. The sheer de-stressing effect of training is worth it, if nothing else. Knowing more techniques gives you more 'weapons' in your armoury plus regular sparring, rolling and training helps keep skills up.
The problem with any situation that is videoed and has people commenting on is that unless the people in the video are there to comment too, no one who is not there has any idea of what the situation was really like. One of the banes of my working life was that after dealing with a situation some one would always say 'what I would have done is...' which is nonsense. I would certainly have dealt with the suspect differently for many reasons, I'm smaller for a start but that doesn't negate what the officer did in the video, he did his best and it worked, you can't actually do more than that. Saying 'oh he should have used this move, that move, put his arm there or her' is pointless, you aren't him and you don't know what his skills are, how weak/strong he is, what he knows, how strong the suspect was, whether he was under the influence etc etc etc.
Yes having ground skills is important...but for whom and why, in what situations does it help, when should you not use ground skills?
Knowing more techniques gives you more 'weapons' in your armoury plus regular sparring, rolling and training helps keep skills up.The problem with any situation that is videoed and has people commenting on is that unless the people in the video are there to comment too, no one who is not there has any idea of what the situation was really like. One of the banes of my working life was that after dealing with a situation some one would always say 'what I would have done is...' which is nonsense. I would certainly have dealt with the suspect differently for many reasons, I'm smaller for a start but that doesn't negate what the officer did in the video, he did his best and it worked, you can't actually do more than that. Saying 'oh he should have used this move, that move, put his arm there or her' is pointless, you aren't him and you don't know what his skills are, how weak/strong he is, what he knows, how strong the suspect was, whether he was under the influence etc etc etc.
Yes having ground skills is important...but for whom and why, in what situations does it help, when should you not use ground skills?
Good work by the LEO in the video. Sure he made a few mistakes but the end result is he maintained control until backup arrived and they were able to arrest the perpetrator. Goal achieved!
