The Guard in self defense?

[ballen0351]

I think he might be trying to score points with silly semantics. Rather than be actually that literal about the topic.

It took me a while to figure out that was the actual point he was trying to make.

I mean are we allowed to breath when in the guard? Because that is the guard plus something. And that could make the guard really dangerous in self defence.

Ok. When we discuss the guard. It generally includes something other than just lying there.

Sorry if there was some misconception.

So then the guard alone isn't good enough got it.

 

[ballen0351]

Wrist control

Then what

 

[Danny T]

Then what

A well executed guard will tie up the top person's body as well as their upper limbs. A properly executed guard can prevent a knifer from stabbing you. 'IF' all goes properly. From the closed guard one can transition into other guard positions that can break the opponent's wrist, grip, and/or arm with little but the guard positions. Everything has to be perfect but it is all from a proper guard. There is nothing that is a specific arm control that is called 'guard'.

 

[Hanzou]

Coming from more of a wrestler than a BJJ guy:

Is the guard (or the variations I do know) ever going to by a go to position for me? Never

In fact, ill probably only ever use it in SD if an assailant takes me down or we trip

That said, its a great recovery position. A great a way to take away his advantage and to let me get started on transitioning to a better position.

To me its like a stepping stone,

To a BJJ guy, its probably more of a central thing

It's definitely a central thing in Bjj. Its one of the defining features of the style, and thanks to the competitive aspects of both sport Bjj and MMA, the guard is probably the most adapted position in MA. A well-executed guard set up is a thing of martial beauty, making a position of weakness and potential doom into a position of strength and potential victory.

That's probably why, like Buka, I absolutely love the guard.

I find it interesting though that while many who actually practice Bjj say its not their go-to move, there's other arts that have adapted the guard and they use it as a go-to move.

 

[Steve]

Snip

 

[elder999]

I find it interesting though that while many who actually practice Bjj say its not their go-to move, there's other arts that have adapted the guard and they use it as a go-to move.

In judo, it's called dō-osae., or just "trunk hold."

In catch wrestling, it's a "front trunk scissors."

In fact, the only grappling styles I know of that have ground (or, more properly, floor) techniques but no guard are greco-roman wrestling, and collegiate wrestling-and I'm not so sure that it doesn't take place in collegiate or freestyle wrestling from time to time.

 

[Hanzou]

In judo, it's called dō-osae., or just "trunk hold."

In catch wrestling, it's a "front trunk scissors."

In fact, the only grappling styles I know of that have ground (or, more properly, floor) techniques but no guard are greco-roman wrestling, and collegiate wrestling-and I'm not so sure that it doesn't take place in collegiate or freestyle wrestling from time to time.

Are there entire systems formed around those positions like there are in Bjj?

For example, the Williams guard has an entire series of sweeps, chokes, and locks based entirely around that starting point.

 

[Buka]

Snip

@Steve

As in thread?

 

[ballen0351]

A well executed guard will tie up the top person's body as well as their upper limbs. A properly executed guard can prevent a knifer from stabbing you. 'IF' all goes properly. From the closed guard one can transition into other guard positions that can break the opponent's wrist, grip, and/or arm with little but the guard positions. Everything has to be perfect but it is all from a proper guard. There is nothing that is a specific arm control that is called 'guard'.

Then what now you tied him up. He's still pissed he's still trying to get you. What else are you going to do?

 

[Buka]

Then what now you tied him up. He's still pissed he's still trying to get you. What else are you going to do?

I'm not sure if the question is directed only at Danny T, if so apologies in advance, but I'm going to collar choke him. No matter what he's wearing. If he's bare chested, I'm more than likely screwed.

 

[elder999]

Are there entire systems formed around those positions like there are in Bjj?

For example, the Williams guard has an entire series of sweeps, chokes, and locks based entirely around that starting point.

I'd hardly call that "entire systems." Otherwise, though, the answer would be "yes."

I have to add, the objectives in freestyle and Greco-roman being what they are, the guard is an inferior position in those sport....which is a little odd, considering the prevalence of wrestling takedowns in MMA.....(don't see many people pulling guard from stand-up in MMA, like they do in sport-jiu-jitsu.)

 

[Danny T]

Then what now you tied him up. He's still pissed he's still trying to get you. What else are you going to do?

In what manner do I have him tied up? Do I have an over or under hood on the weapon arm? Is it high on the arm or low? Is the arm across my body or not? Am I in a 'closed' guard, 'open' guard or another variant? Is it a high guard or a low guard?
Too many possibilities I need more information for your scenario.

As I have already posted there is no particular arm position or control that is specific to guard. But depending upon the particular arm positioning and control action an arm break is possible, a shoulder lock is possible, a arm triangle is possible and they are all guard.

These are but some examples; there are others.

 

[Hanzou]

I'd hardly call that "entire systems.

Well to give you an example, here's a pretty exhaustive compendium of the Williams Guard from Sherdog, examining its entries, sweeps, locks, chokes, counters, and counter-counters;

The Williams Guard A Compendium GIF Image Heavy Long Post - Sherdog Mixed Martial Arts Forums

And here's one for Leite's Half-guard;

Lucas Leite The Half Guard Gambledub s Breakdown Study Companion - Sherdog Mixed Martial Arts Forums

" Otherwise, though, the answer would be "yes."

Would you care to share some? Something along the lines of what I posted above would be great.

I have to add, the objectives in freestyle and Greco-roman being what they are, the guard is an inferior position in those sport....which is a little odd, considering the prevalence of wrestling takedowns in MMA.....(don't see many people pulling guard from stand-up in MMA, like they do in sport-jiu-jitsu.)

The high level Bjj guys do. Guys like Shinya Aoki, Paul Sass, or Nate Diaz pull guard quite a bit. Kron Gracie pulled guard in his debut MMA match and won in the first round.Those guys are pretty elite level grapplers though.

There's a few reasons you don't see as much Guard Pulling in MMA as you do in sport Bjj. It mostly has to do with ground fighting being punished in MMA where its the main focus of sport Bjj.

 

[elder999]

The high level Bjj guys do. Guys like Shinya Aoki, Paul Sass, or Nate Diaz pull guard quite a bit. Kron Gracie pulled guard in his debut MMA match and won in the first round.Those guys are pretty elite level grapplers though.

There's a few reasons you don't see as much Guard Pulling in MMA as you do in sport Bjj. It mostly has to do with ground fighting being punished in MMA where its the main focus of sport Bjj.

In sports where the objective is to pin the opponent's shoulders on the mat, like freestyle and greco-roman wrestling, the guard is an inferior position.

In MMA, you don't see as much guard pulling because the guard s not an superior position-it's transitional at best

I'd have to add, most MMA participants have a pretty weak guard....

Generally, though, BJJ is not always the best foundation for MMA, especially the sport version, where pulling guard is rewarded;; in MMA it's a liability, unless you have a really good guard game....sport BJJ is also weak on takedowns-wrestling takedowns tend to dominate in MMA, with a few exceptions-but most BJJ studios don't really train for many takedowns beyond "pulling guard," and inadequate versions of wrestling takedowns....by "inadequate," I mean not as well done as by wrestlers...

 

[Hanzou]

In sports where the objective is to pin the opponent's shoulders on the mat, like freestyle and greco-roman wrestling, the guard is an inferior position.

In MMA, you don't see as much guard pulling because the guard s not an superior position-it's transitional at best

I'd have to add, most MMA participants have a pretty weak guard....

Generally, though, BJJ is not always the best foundation for MMA, especially the sport version, where pulling guard is rewarded;; in MMA it's a liability, unless you have a really good guard game....sport BJJ is also weak on takedowns-wrestling takedowns tend to dominate in MMA, with a few exceptions-but most BJJ studios don't really train for many takedowns beyond "pulling guard," and inadequate versions of wrestling takedowns....by "inadequate," I mean not as well done as by wrestlers...

Nothing for Judo trunk hold? That's unfortunate. Is that something else I can add as a difference between Judo and Bjj?

Yes, I would imagine that in sports where you lose if you are pinned on your back, or like in MMA where the point system works against traditional guard play, the guard would be considered an inferior position.

But we're not talking about sports, we're talking about self defense.

As for the state of Bjj takedowns, they're definitely improving. Especially as more Wrestlers, Judoka, and Samboists enter the style.

 

[Buka]

Nothing for Judo trunk hold? That's unfortunate.


Yes, I would imagine that in sports where you lose if you are pinned on your back, or like in MMA where the point system works against traditional guard play, the guard would be considered an inferior position.

But we're not talking about sports, we're talking about self defense.

Yes, we're talking about self defense. So - would I be right in thinking that the first purpose of the guard would be, - while on the ground, to prevent the opponent from mounting you or gaining any other superior position?

 

[Hanzou]

Yes, we're talking about self defense. So - would I be right in thinking that the first purpose of the guard would be, - while on the ground, to prevent the opponent from mounting you or gaining any other superior position?

Yes indeed.

 

[elder999]

Nothing for Judo trunk hold? That's unfortunate. Is that something else I can add as a difference between Judo and Bjj?

No-as I've said before, pretty much everything you've ever posted from BJJ can be found, in one form or another, in judo-especially when it comes to newaza.

Here, you like youtube-start at 2:00:

and this video isn't the best quality one, and it's of a class (and a rather undisciplined one!), rather than demonstration, but look what they're training on:

You can even find "rubber guard" in judo, if you look hard enough....

Yes, I would imagine that in sports where you lose if you are pinned on your back, or like in MMA where the point system works against traditional guard play, the guard would be considered an inferior position.

It's inferior for self-defense as well. Knowing how to fight from it? THen stand up fight and/or run away? Essential for self-defense, in case you wind up there.

Having it as a go-to technique for self defense? Not so much.

But we're not talking about sports, we're talking about self defense.

"Self defense?" Not so sure from your posts that we're talking about the same thing......

If we're talking about BJJ, we're mostly talking about a sport-albeit one that favors the guard, to the extent that "pulling guard" is a valid tactic

 

[Hanzou]

No-as I've said before, pretty much everything you've ever posted from BJJ can be found, in one form or another, in judo-especially when it comes to newaza.

Here, you like youtube-start at 2:00:

and this video isn't the best quality one, and it's of a class (and a rather undisciplined one!), rather than demonstration, but look what they're training on:

You can even find "rubber guard" in judo, if you look hard enough....

Vids not showing up for me. I'll check them out when I get home. Thanks for posting them.

It's inferior for self-defense as well. Knowing how to fight from it? THen stand up fight and/or run away? Essential for self-defense, in case you wind up there.

Why stand up and fight when you can finish it right there and be done with it? In other words, if I have an opportunity to put someone in a choke from guard and end the confrontation, why wouldn't I go for that instead of risking to prolong the fight by standing back up again?

Having it as a go-to technique for self defense? Not so much.

It's definitely a situational go-to technique. If a smaller person is tackled by someone who is bigger and stronger for example, or if a rapist has a girl in missionary position, the guard can save their butt.

As for guard pulling as a valid self defense tactic, I think the Akban guys showed plenty of SD applications using the guard pull. :shrug:

 

[elder999]

Why stand up and fight when you can finish it right there and be done with it? In other words, if I have an opportunity to put someone in a choke from guard and end the confrontation, why wouldn't I go for that instead of risking to prolong the fight by standing back up again?

Well, choking an attacker out might be one way of escaping to stand up fight, and/or run away-

I mean, what is the person in that situation going to do, as reasonable and prudent self-defense, after choking someone out? Get up off the ground.

It's definitely a situational go-to technique. If a smaller person is tackled by someone who is bigger and stronger for example, or if a rapist has a girl in missionary position, the guard can save their butt.

I'd call that a "situation," not a "situational go-to." Kinda like having a knife held to your throat with your back against the wall-"back against the wall" isn't a "go-to" (thhough it can be) but there you are anyway,.

As for guard pulling as a valid self defense tactic, I think the Akban guys showed plenty of SD applications using the guard pull. :shrug:

That's a little different, but okay.....