self defense until im old

[drop bear]

The original comment was in a conversation about "samurai martial training methods"… where the question was (rather facetiously) whether or not samurai killed each other every time they trained together to ensure they could (and would) actually kill the enemy as well. The answer was no, they didn't, and that we know this as we have the same training manuals and records as part of our current training information and methods. We were then asked where our information came from, and the answer was from actually being part of the systems in question, and from training it currently. In other words, we were being asked for the source of information that came from actually training in these systems, to which we (well, I) said that our source for what we do in our training is ourselves, as we know what we do in our training sessions.

I very highly doubt you are living the life of a samurai of that time period. So it is not in anyway shape or form a first person experience.

 

[drop bear]

This has been pointed out repeatedly, and Drop Bear has continued to miss the actual meaning of the comment. When it comes to a peer reviewed paper, external sources, external data, experiments (thought and physical), and so on all require sources, sure… but saying "based on all of this, my view is…" does not require any source other than the person making the observation itself.

Yeah I don't think you ever started a post with "my view is"

 

[Tony Dismukes]

The original comment was in a conversation about "samurai martial training methods"… where the question was (rather facetiously) whether or not samurai killed each other every time they trained together to ensure they could (and would) actually kill the enemy as well. The answer was no, they didn't, and that we know this as we have the same training manuals and records as part of our current training information and methods. We were then asked where our information came from, and the answer was from actually being part of the systems in question, and from training it currently.

Yeah, I remember that conversation. Not the finest moment for drop bear's skepticism, since he never really clarified what sort of "evidence" he was looking for.

Was he looking for ...

• evidence that you train in a koryu art?
• evidence that said art actually dates back to the samurai period?
• evidence that the art has accurately maintained training traditions and written records from that period?
• links to scans of the original written records?
• video taken by a time traveler of actual samurai training?

Without knowing what he was looking for, it really wasn't possible to address his calls for "evidence."

In other words, we were being asked for the source of information that came from actually training in these systems, to which we (well, I) said that our source for what we do in our training is ourselves, as we know what we do in our training sessions.

In fairness, the discussion wasn't about what you do in your training sessions and whether you were a valid source for that information, it was about what the samurai did and whether you were a valid source for that. The major bone of contention was whether your current training matched theirs.

Of course, as noted above, he gave no clarification as to what sort of evidence he would accept to establish that correspondence.

When it comes to my self defence curriculum, bluntly, it's our intellectual property that I don't have a lot of intention to put up publicly, however if someone is genuinely curious, I might be persuaded to offer some details… depending on the person, of course, and the manner of the request.

Not asking for the actual curriculum, but would you be willing to explain

• The scope of the curriculum?
• the sources and methodology for establishing that curriculum?
• how that curriculum has been tested/validated/improved upon?

If you don't want to address those publicly, I might check with you via PM.

 

[Chris Parker]

Duplicate, deleted.

 

[Chris Parker]

I very highly doubt you are living the life of a samurai of that time period. So it is not in anyway shape or form a first person experience.

I train in Koryu, son. That is the actual "samurai training methods". So yeah, it is absolutely first person experience… your ignorance in this topic doesn't change the reality.

Yeah I don't think you ever started a post with "my view is"

Again, completely missing the point.

Yeah, I remember that conversation. Not the finest moment for drop bear's skepticism, since he never really clarified what sort of "evidence" he was looking for.

It was worse than that, honestly… it started with a tongue in cheek comment asking if he (and Hanzou, from memory) really believed that everything had to be done "for real" in training in order to ensure it would be done "for real" when it came to application (an argument they were using for sparring/competition as opposed to drilling or kata), with the example of "do you really think the samurai were killing each other in practice so they could kill people in battle?"… a question so ludicrous (a usage of a reducto ad absurdum argument) that it was designed to highlight the flaws in their argument… but was taken seriously, to the point that we (Elder and myself) were asked how we knew they didn't (?!?!).

From there, both Elder and myself brought up the fact that we either have trained in, or are currently training in the very systems and training methodologies of the samurai of old, with our systems having documentation of training practices, showing that the methods of training now are as they were then, and that as such, we can say that no, samurai did not go out and kill each other at each training session. Drop Bear and Hanzou continued to ask whether we had any evidence… ignoring the fact that our actual experience in these systems is the source for our claims of how they are trained… saying that we were providing no evidence, because they were unable to acknowledge or recognise the differing forms evidence can take. This was explained ad nauseum, however Drop Bear has since taken the idea of "be your own source (when describing your own experiences)" and completely misapplied, misunderstood it, and showed a deep, desperate ignorance of the most basic concepts of the nature of evidence in any form.

Was he looking for ...

• evidence that you train in a koryu art?
• evidence that said art actually dates back to the samurai period?
• evidence that the art has accurately maintained training traditions and written records from that period?
• links to scans of the original written records?
• video taken by a time traveler of actual samurai training?

Whatever he was after, no matter what he was given, his immediate retort was "So… no evidence then?"

Without knowing what he was looking for, it really wasn't possible to address his calls for "evidence."

Oh, they were addressed… his intellectual poverty didn't mean it wasn't addressed… just that the recipient either wasn't able to recognise it, or he was deliberately trolling. I'm still on the fence as to that.

In fairness, the discussion wasn't about what you do in your training sessions and whether you were a valid source for that information, it was about what the samurai did and whether you were a valid source for that. The major bone of contention was whether your current training matched theirs.

No, it started there, but quickly turned to "how do you know what a samurai martial arts training methods were like?", which lead to "Well, we train in them… they still exist, and we use the same methods now that they did then." That's when we got to the idea of "be your own source" that has continued to here.

Of course, as noted above, he gave no clarification as to what sort of evidence he would accept to establish that correspondence.

And that, frankly, is his own lack.

Not asking for the actual curriculum, but would you be willing to explain

• The scope of the curriculum?
• the sources and methodology for establishing that curriculum?
• how that curriculum has been tested/validated/improved upon?

If you don't want to address those publicly, I might check with you via PM.

That I'll answer via PM, just send the questions through and I'll break it down as best I can.

 

[drop bear]

I train in Koryu, son. That is the actual "samurai training methods". So yeah, it is absolutely first person experience… your ignorance in this topic doesn't change the reality.

I train bjj. Now let me tell you what it was like growing up in a favella.

 

[Chris Parker]

You do get that no-one, in either this or any other thread, has made any claim to "living as a samurai", but about understanding what training in samurai-derived systems is like… but, for the record, I'd expect you'd have a better understanding of what growing up in a favella is like than someone training TKD…

 

[drop bear]

You do get that no-one, in either this or any other thread, has made any claim to "living as a samurai", but about understanding what training in samurai-derived systems is like… but, for the record, I'd expect you'd have a better understanding of what growing up in a favella is like than someone training TKD…

No. I asked about living as a samurai. And whether or not they dueled anybody. And you said first hand experience.

Which it why I was supposed to just take your word for it.

 

[Chris Parker]

No, the discussion was about samurai training practices. When you were answered, you responded "I doubt you're really living like a samurai", at which point you were told that that was not what was being claimed. You were told that again. And again.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I asked about living as a samurai. And whether or not they dueled anybody.

Speaking as a neutral third party who generally appreciates both Chris's posts and your own - nope. That was not what was said. The specific question was whether samurai killed each other in practice as part of their training. No one ever denied that duels occurred between samurai.

Also, neither Chris nor anyone else claimed to "be a samurai" or to be "living as a samurai." In fact, Chris has made numerous statements which would contradict that claim. What Chris claims is to be training in an art which has preserved the techniques and training methods of (a certain school of) samurai origin. That's completely different from "being a samurai" or "living as a samurai."

but, for the record, I'd expect you'd have a better understanding of what growing up in a favella is like than someone training TKD…

Actually, nah. That sort of cultural context has not been preserved in BJJ. Even if it had been, you'd have to find a school from the Fadda lineage, because the Gracies focused on teaching the folks with money.

 

[Drew Ahn-Kim]

First off, Tony Dismukes for Chief Justice 2016!

Secondly, I'd actually like to learn a bit about your system and methodology Chris, if you've posted it else where would you mind linking. I lived in Japan for 3 years and had a long obsession with Samurai history and Bushido. This whole post kind of took a left turn though.

 

[Chris Parker]

Actually, nah. That sort of cultural context has not been preserved in BJJ. Even if it had been, you'd have to find a school from the Fadda lineage, because the Gracies focused on teaching the folks with money.

Agreed… however, he's still going to have a better idea than others… who likely wouldn't even know what a favella is…

First off, Tony Dismukes for Chief Justice 2016!

Secondly, I'd actually like to learn a bit about your system and methodology Chris, if you've posted it else where would you mind linking. I lived in Japan for 3 years and had a long obsession with Samurai history and Bushido. This whole post kind of took a left turn though.

Send a PM and I'll aim to answer what I can.

 

[Spinoza]

I’m a complete novice, but I’ve been thinking about the same question recently (perhaps because of a hip injury made me feel old?) and I thought I’d throw in my two cents.

I am, however, going to break up the question into self-defense in old age and martial arts in old age. I’m not going to vouch for any particular style being “good” or “bad” for self-defense, and I’m not sure if an internet forum is the right place to find the answer for that question. Go visit some schools and see for yourself. The right teacher is probably more important than the right style when it comes to that. While you are at it, ask the teacher how he handles students that have an injury. Are they allowed to practice and, if so, how is that handled?

The downside to this is that there are no guarantees. You may end up being strong and flexible well into your 70s, you may end up paralyzed tomorrow. You may find a great school that could continue teaching you as you age . . . but the teacher is going to age too. Who knows if the next teacher will be as supportive, or if the school is even going to be around in 5 years?

That said . . .


Self-defense

Get pepper spray and learn how to use it. Personally, I haven’t seen a more effective nonlethal way of ending a fight, and there is no age requirement. Get a dog and train it. Even a small yappy dog is great for home protection. My friendly-as-can-be lab/border collie mix is responsible for stopping at least one home burglary and one incident of vandalism; in both cases, ours was the only home on the block that wasn’t hit and that was because we had dogs in the yard.

Learn more about avoiding and extricating yourself from threatening situations. I’m not saying you need any formal training, but common sense can be surprisingly hard to come by in an emergency situation, so at least go around, pick up some tips and think through some emergency scenario. I’m talking everything from the simple (after you pepper spray someone, leave — surprising number of people stick around waiting for the cops to show up) to the bizarre (a woman at my college stopped a mugging . . . by repeatedly barking at the guy and generally acting bonkers).

Find out what weapons are legal for carry in your area. If there are any that you are comfortable using in self-defense, seek training. And don’t take anything for granted. In my state, you can legally carry a knife or even a handgun (with proper licensing), but “clubs” (which are not well-defined, legally speaking) are illegal to carry in public. And yes, if you practice using a cane in self-defense, and you use it for that purpose, you may find later that it is classified as a “club."

Finally, keep practicing your throwing arm. If someone threatens you and demands, say, your car keys or your wallet, throw them as far away as you can, and leave.

I’ll post my thoughts on martial arts here in just a second.

 

[Spinoza]

Martial arts in old age

Again, I’m not telling you whether or not I think any of these are useful for self-defense. That depends on how they are taught, which depends on the instructor. The question isn’t “Is Y style good for self-defense?” but “Does X teach realistic self-defense applications for Y style?” I know that Tai-Chi has been used for self-defense in the past, but I don’t know of any schools in my area that teach Tai-Chi as self-defense. Your mileage may vary.

Wing Chun is probably my go-to answer. There is no stress on high kicks and you probably aren’t going to be dealing with high-impact sparring. As a funny side note, remember how I mentioned my injured hip in my last post? I went for a short intro class in Wing Chun and learned a stance that was extremely uncomfortable at first. I asked the instructor about it and he said that the stance was primarily for conditioning leg strength, and that it isn’t common to fight from the stance itself. A few minutes into it, my hip felt great.

Surprisingly, most articles that I’ve read on this subject suggest BJJ, but it makes sense the more I think about it. The sparring can get intense, but you can scale that back with age, and I don’t think you’ll have to worry about many high kicks J

On the other hand . . .

I don’t think there is a good universal answer to your question that will work for everyone. I’ve spoken to many aging Judokas that blame Judo for the bulk of their physical ailments — specifically they blame the joint stress for their arthritis, and being constantly thrown to the mat with the force of a low speed vehicle impact probably doesn’t do any long-term favors for your body. As much as that makes sense, no one told this woman: http://jezebel.com/5833226/meet-the-98-year-old-female-judo-master

And you are worried about high kicks? That isn’t necessarily a problem in old age: Kicking From the Hip

And just as a general “age is just a number” pick-me-up:

Yes, these people are all outliers, but hey, they prove it is possible.

All physical activity in your senior years is a double edged sword: it has obvious benefits, but there is a higher risk of injury. Any doctor will tell you that it is better to go ahead and stay physically active and adjust your routine to reduce risks when necessary.

 

[Spinoza]

More inspiration:

I hope I'm still moving around like that at 75.

 

[nicerdicer]

SD is Threat & Awareness Evaluation, Coopers Colour Codes, Target Hardening, The Fence and familiarising yourself with the Rituals of Violence. Once you have these skills, then in the majority of cases the only thing you need is a good strong punch. As Geoff Thompson says, "I train for the first shot, it's all I need".

As for picking an art, I would just try everything that's available, and pick the one you enjoy the most, as if you enjoy it you are more likely to stick with it and therefore become good at it.

There have been some good comments. The quote abovr is what I agree most with.

And just for the record: I do worry about my training 50 yrs down the line. Why? I know a lot of people who didn't, now they're 40+ and they can't train anymore.

And no way will I ever stop doing martial arts period. Nothing makes my life more joyful.

 

[nicerdicer]

Martial arts in old age

Again, I’m not telling you whether or not I think any of these are useful for self-defense. That depends on how they are taught, which depends on the instructor. The question isn’t “Is Y style good for self-defense?” but “Does X teach realistic self-defense applications for Y style?” I know that Tai-Chi has been used for self-defense in the past, but I don’t know of any schools in my area that teach Tai-Chi as self-defense. Your mileage may vary.

Wing Chun is probably my go-to answer. There is no stress on high kicks and you probably aren’t going to be dealing with high-impact sparring. As a funny side note, remember how I mentioned my injured hip in my last post? I went for a short intro class in Wing Chun and learned a stance that was extremely uncomfortable at first. I asked the instructor about it and he said that the stance was primarily for conditioning leg strength, and that it isn’t common to fight from the stance itself. A few minutes into it, my hip felt great.

Surprisingly, most articles that I’ve read on this subject suggest BJJ, but it makes sense the more I think about it. The sparring can get intense, but you can scale that back with age, and I don’t think you’ll have to worry about many high kicks J

On the other hand . . .

I don’t think there is a good universal answer to your question that will work for everyone. I’ve spoken to many aging Judokas that blame Judo for the bulk of their physical ailments — specifically they blame the joint stress for their arthritis, and being constantly thrown to the mat with the force of a low speed vehicle impact probably doesn’t do any long-term favors for your body. As much as that makes sense, no one told this woman: http://jezebel.com/5833226/meet-the-98-year-old-female-judo-master

And you are worried about high kicks? That isn’t necessarily a problem in old age: Kicking From the Hip

And just as a general “age is just a number” pick-me-up:

Yes, these people are all outliers, but hey, they prove it is possible.

All physical activity in your senior years is a double edged sword: it has obvious benefits, but there is a higher risk of injury. Any doctor will tell you that it is better to go ahead and stay physically active and adjust your routine to reduce risks when necessary.

Well both the people in the videos can't defend themselves (gives they weren't able to avoid the situation). I don't care how high they kick or whatever, I want to walk in peace and be a bad old mofo.

 

[Tames D]

Thanks for your suggestion, son, but you're not really in a position to educate me on this.

I see what you did here. "Son" I'm proud of you Steve!