MA for Self-Defense?

[WCman1976]

The OP was asking for suggestions of an art to supplement his TKD in terms of self defence. Do you think someone would benefit from training both WC and TKD and how long until it might be useful for SD? :asian:

The very nature of his post implies training in two styles at once.

 

[K-man]

The very nature of his post implies training in two styles at once.

Exactly. I think some may have missed that point. :asian:

 

[chinto]

OK, on record, the old Fairbairn-Applegate art called defendu is simple nasty and brutally effective for SD. Krav is like Defendu a troop style, it is not intended like the Fairbairn style is not intended to deal with a trained martial artist.

Aikido takes a long time in and of its self to become proficient enough to use on the street in Self Defense, that said when you get to that point it is very effective.

It all depends on what level of threat you are looking at and how you wish to deal with it. the troop styles are effective for what they are designed for. they are great for SD training in a relatively short time.

Many other styles will over time surpass them, but is that what you are looking for? Decide what level of threat, what kind of threat, ( lethal, non lethal, fire arms, blades or what have you ) and how much you wish to need to train to deal with them. if they are trained martial artists its going to change things from the normal street criminals. ( unlikely you will ever be attacked by a trained martial artist!) but again decide the threat, and then go looking with that in mind.

 

[frank raud]

OK, on record, the old Fairbairn-Applegate art called defendu is simple nasty and brutally effective for SD. Krav is like Defendu a troop style, it is not intended like the Fairbairn style is not intended to deal with a trained martial artist.

Applegate had nothing to do with Defendu, Fairbairn and Sykes had stopped teaching it by the time Applegate became involved with them. Defendu was a police control and restraint art. The WWII combatives as taught by Fairbairn, Sykes and Applegate were taught both to troops and to individuals(spies and sabatouers). It matters not what your opponent knows, as there is no blocking or countering in the system, as it is based on agression and forward drive.

 

[frank raud]

From the back cover of Get Tough! "Fairbairn's task was to invent a style of fighting which would enable the outnumbered constabulary to lick the gangsters and cutthroats to a standstill.
It had to be better than jiu-jutsu(judo)."

Sounds like it was developed to work against trained martial artists.

 

[chinto]

Applegate had nothing to do with Defendu, Fairbairn and Sykes had stopped teaching it by the time Applegate became involved with them. Defendu was a police control and restraint art. The WWII combatives as taught by Fairbairn, Sykes and Applegate were taught both to troops and to individuals(spies and sabatouers). It matters not what your opponent knows, as there is no blocking or countering in the system, as it is based on agression and forward drive.

well I have had people tell me they adopted the name defendo to to the fairbairn, sykes, Applegate system.....

 

[Kong Soo Do]

As a side note, I believe Kelly McCann aka Jim Grover teaches from the Fairbairn/Sykes/O'Neill model and I know that Carl Cestari did (RIP). I don't remember exactly who followed up after Carl...Matt Damon maybe?

Charles Nelson also taught from that model and last I heard you can still purchase his Little Red Book from his granddaughter. I used to have the address but have lost it over the years.

 

[frank raud]

well I have had people tell me they adopted the name defendo to to the fairbairn, sykes, Applegate system.....

They would be incorrect. Defendo refers either to the Bill Underwood post WWII police art, or Modern Defendo by Bill Wolfe. DEFENDU was prior to the FAS system, and is a more complete system, with a large section on restraint and controls. Defendu the book shows approximately 300 + techniques, Get Tough!, the basis of the FAS system prior to the development by Sykes of the Silent Killing Syllabus has less than 30. The Silent Killing Syllabus pares down from there. The techniques in the FAS system(s) can be found in Defendu, but it is a stripped down art that was specifically designed to be taught in a short period of time. FAS comes from Defendu, but is not Defendu.

 

[frank raud]

As a side note, I believe Kelly McCann aka Jim Grover teaches from the Fairbairn/Sykes/O'Neill model and I know that Carl Cestari did (RIP). I don't remember exactly who followed up after Carl...Matt Damon maybe?

Charles Nelson also taught from that model and last I heard you can still purchase his Little Red Book from his granddaughter. I used to have the address but have lost it over the years.

Jim Grover's combatives are a mix of Applegate(through John Kary) and FMA. Never seen anything from him that would put him in the O'Neill camp, but I could be wrong.
Carl Cestari definitely taught FAS and O'Neill, both as stand alone systems and combined. I attended several weekend long seminars with Carl, he definitely put us through our paces. Charles Nelson's books are now available through Paladin.

 

[HapKiDo Bob]

I currently train in a traditional style of Tae Kwon Do as my ranking Martial Art and have been supplementing it with various other arts for grappling and weapons training. I would also like to supplement my training with something that could offer good, practicle self-defense. I am considering Krav Maga. Anyone have any thoughts on that or perhaps good suggestions for other styles that may have good self-defense? I know that studying a style of martial art is studying self-defense in-and-of-itself. But I'd like to consider a style that really focuses on "self-defense" not just hand-to-hand combat (if that makes any sense). If you have any thoughts or suggestions, would you also have recommendations for good, reputable instructors? Perhaps a seminar that they offer?

Thanks

Hey FizzzyCal,

I understand your dilemma completely. I've been training in Tae Kwon Do Moo Duk Kwan since the early 80s. I Love it, it has great Self Defense skills and I wouldn't trade my experience for the world. That being said there is always room for more martial arts for your arsenal of Self Defense. Hap Ki Do is another Korean Martial Art that focuses on Self Defense by use of Joint Locks, Throws, and Strikes (among many other things including weapons, depending on the Kwan). It stands alone as a very powerful and effective Self Defense System. It has been a great experience for me so far and I'm learning a lot that I didn't learn in Tae Kwon Do over the years (because it's a different martial art). I think if you research it thoroughly and find the Style of Hap Ki Do that works for you, it will serve as a great additional Self Defense Art.

My 2 Cents.

Bob

 

[HapKiDo Bob]

Good Luck.

 

[rickster]

Hey FizzzyCal,

I understand your dilemma completely. I've been training in Tae Kwon Do Moo Duk Kwan since the early 80s. I Love it, it has great Self Defense skills and I wouldn't trade my experience for the world. That being said there is always room for more martial arts for your arsenal of Self Defense. Hap Ki Do is another Korean Martial Art that focuses on Self Defense by use of Joint Locks, Throws, and Strikes (among many other things including weapons, depending on the Kwan). It stands alone as a very powerful and effective Self Defense System. It has been a great experience for me so far and I'm learning a lot that I didn't learn in Tae Kwon Do over the years (because it's a different martial art). I think if you research it thoroughly and find the Style of Hap Ki Do that works for you, it will serve as a great additional Self Defense Art.

My 2 Cents.

Bob

I was in Hapkido. Somewhat like Aikido

 

[Supra Vijai]

I was in Hapkido. Somewhat like Aikido

What makes you say that? It is my understanding that the two have very different mindsets or approaches to training and methodology. Aikido is a Japanese art which strives to not defeat or destroy your enemy but to harmonize with them whereas Hapkido is a Korean art with a far more aggressive mentality and often aims to maim or kill (similar to Krav).

Now I know I'm stating the obvious by pointing out the country of origin for each art but that plays a huge part in attitudes, structure of the art and teaching and training methodologies. You don't train a Korean system with a Japanese attitude or vice versa and expect to do either any justice. They must be taken on their own merits.

All that said, I tried (a version) of Krav for a few months and found it wasn't for me personally. Yes it was very gross motor but a lot of it seemed extreme and the concept of appropriate force was a little skewed. Granted the school kept pointing out it's not a sport system, it's based on the same principles used by the IDF but IMO those weren't applicable to the society *I* live in. If the OP was still looking for something to bring their Self Defense up to speed, I'd probably suggest looking at something like an RBSD school personally, for a couple of reasons. Reality Based Self Defense is going to be geared up for just that. Reality based self defense as it is applicable to your environment. Not a war zone halfway around the world but around the corner or at the end of your street. Also, it's not a martial art, there are not as many "forms" or traditions to follow which in turn helps remove the confusion that can arise from cross training in arts quite effectively.

 

[rickster]

What makes you say that? It is my understanding that the two have very different mindsets or approaches to training and methodology. Aikido is a Japanese art which strives to not defeat or destroy your enemy but to harmonize with them whereas Hapkido is a Korean art with a far more aggressive mentality and often aims to maim or kill .

I think you maybe a tad mistaken on your Hapkido

Although both have the same roots and share many of the same methods

 

[Cyriacus]

*Googles*

Hapkido:

Aikido:

Boxing has its roots in Pugilism. But Pugilism barely resembles Boxing as it is now.

 

[ETinCYQX]

When I say "traditional" I mean we study Tae Kwon Do as it was handed down from Jhoon Rhee through our lineage, but is not the "current" Jhoon Rhee system. It is not associated with ITF, WTF, ATA, or any other TKD association.

Texkwondo, Allan Steen type stuff? That's a very legit self-defense system in and of itself. "Nobody bodders me!"

That said I like Judo for self defense, or Jujutsu, or even hapkido.

 

[chinto]

I prefer Okinawan Karate myself for self defense. but all have good things in them generally.

 

[Instructor]

I recently had the honor of teaching a student with a Krav Maga background. He absolutely loved Hapkido and told me when he gets to his next unit he would be seeking further Hapkido instruction. He was really interested in how we solve certain problems very differently.

I would hazard that Krav Maga would not add much to good TKD instruction whereas Hapkido might go a long way towards filling in the blanks. The systems of TKD and HKD are highly compatible, they have similar stances and philosophy.

Again proficiency in Tae Kwon Do is nothing to turn your nose up at. If used properly TKD can be a force to be reckoned with.

The differences between Aikido and Hapkido are substantial. For example you probably wouldn't see an Aikidoka deliver an attack to the throat or a side kick to the knee. You probably wouldn’t see many eye gouges or other aggressive tactics.

Just so I am clear I am a big fan of all arts mentioned here. I see them all as being effective if the person practicing them puts in the time.

 

[FabianosKarate]

Very good points on here! While I don't particularly care for (personally) Tae Kwon Do, I think that any style that someone works towards and "masters" is a good style for self defense. Our head Sensei, Mr. Tom Fabiano, is a 3rd Degree in Tae Kwon Do. The flexibility and technique of his kicks are excellent, however he does not like the stances and some of the techniques. Sensei Fabiano is also a 6th Degree in Kobayashi Shorin-ryu. We also take techniques and applications from that style.

I think the best answer is a good variety of techniques from many proven styles.