The Guard in self defense?

[Hanzou]

It would certainly be a major part of a guard attack. Just as stepping in aggressively is a part of a striking attack.

Well there would be pressure and possible pain being applied from the leg compression on waist. That should be considered an attack.

 

[Hanzou]

Are you talking about to stretch your legs from the guard? Well done (above waist) it is my half a second submission or 'submission'. I don't understand why virtually everyone try to do very complex things from the guard before try this one! That doesn't work (only?) against very big or very fat persons.

Nope. Just talking about closed guard. Some guys and girls have very powerful legs, and their guards can feel like vices when applied.

 

[Chrisoro]

The guard is nothing it's a place holder and temporary position it's not attacking or defending.

No, the guard is not a static position. The guard is an active and dynamic defense strategy. Someone just lying there with their legs around an opponent cannot be said to have a very good guard, as a good guard constitutes constant posture breaking, active defense against strikes and passes, and constantly threatening with sweeps and submissions. While it can be argued that the sweeps and submissions is separate techniques from the guard, the way to get there requires and active and dynamic guard.

 

[Buka]

Wouldn't it be great if we got to choreograph the few, if any, actual fights in real life? My attacker - she would be a six foot tall, dark haired beauty with a short skirt trying to kick me in the head repeatedly. And hopefull, not too fast.

We can't even dictate the circumstances of a fight, other than to eliminate some. I'm not going to get attacked at 2 a.m going to my car. The only way I'm outside at 2 a.m is if my house is on fire. Socially, I'm never in a place where people I don't know are drinking. I don't have to be in high crime areas anymore, so I'm not. Yeah, yeah, I know a fight can happen anywhere, but many of them are eliminated by what I do or don't do.

As for running away from a fight - I can skedaddle out of someplace if I see or sense trouble brewing. But to actually run away fast if trouble was coming at me, that ain't happening. I'd get taken down in thirty yards and have to fight anyway, so running is no longer an option for me. I wish it were.

That leaves the fight itself. If I could choreograph it, we'd be standing up, in close, striking. That's my first home, it's where I love to be. The last damn place I want to ever go is to the ground. But maybe I fall down, get knocked down, get taken down or slip. Most folks are bigger and stronger than me, I usually end up on the bottom. If so, I want to get my guard. My closed guard. You're finished there, sucker, I ain't letting you get away, it's where I attack from, has been for twenty years. The only hope a person has is to get their *** out of my guard, if he's there for a full thirty seconds he's going to get knocked out or beaten senseless. The guard is the only place I'm really confident throwing strikes from, other than standing. It is such a fine place to strike from. You have to have a strong active core to do it, and you have to have trained the position - but I have a strong active core and have trained the **** out of that position.

 

[FriedRice]

No

Man, you don't know what the BJJ guard is then. When 2 equally trained BJJ are grappling in this position, it's a constant struggle with most major muscle groups being strained. Any slight rest or release of pressure that's detected by the other guy, could mean getting swept or submitted. They are not just laying there.

It's equally or even more exhausting than pure standup, striking sparring....where you throw a combo or even flurries, but then you can drop back and recover before going again.

 

[ballen0351]

Using the stance analogy - if the title of the thread was "the boxing stance in self-defense", would you be making comments about standing around in a boxing stance like a statue waiting for someone to call the police? Or would you recognize from context the question concerned the usefulness of the boxing stance as a mobile platform for executing defensive and offensive techniques?

Yep I would. Just like when I said if the topic was the punch I said then what next. There is no 1 singular thing that =s self defense short of perhaps shooting someone or running away. The guard is fine for what it is but it's not self defense it's setting the table to use other techniques

For what it's worth, when people who actually train in the use of the guard speak of "developing one's guard" or "learning guard techniques", they are talking about the whole shebang - protecting oneself, controlling the opponent, and executing chokes, jointlocks, sweeps, and even strikes from the guard. (Personally, I also include escaping to my feet as an important aspect of the guard game, but not everybody stretches the term that far.)

Yes but like I said those are other techniques not the "guard"

 

[ballen0351]

Man, you don't know what the BJJ guard is then. When 2 equally trained BJJ are grappling in this position, it's a constant struggle with most major muscle groups being strained. Any slight rest or release of pressure that's detected by the other guy, could mean getting swept or submitted. They are not just laying there.

It's equally or even more exhausting than pure standup, striking sparring....where you throw a combo or even flurries, but then you can drop back and recover before going again.

That's great but that's not self defense your not going to squeeze a murderer or mugger or rapist into submission with your thighs in guard. It's very important in the sport of BJJ but we're talking about just the guard in self defense

 

[ballen0351]

While it can be argued that the sweeps and submissions is separate techniques from the guard, .

They are separate

 

[Hanzou]

The guard is fine for what it is but it's not self defense it's setting the table to use other techniques"

Techniques that wouldn't be as easy or efficient to apply if you weren't in the guard.

 

[drop bear]

Well there would be pressure and possible pain being applied from the leg compression on waist. That should be considered an attack.

Gaining better position can and should be considered an attack. So attacking from guard does not necessarily mean you are actually hurting people.

So to compare this to striking as a concept, slipping may be considered a defence by a beginner. But it is an attack as you get more experienced.

And all of this moves the tactics away from submission and towards position.

Hence the quote.

 

[drop bear]

They are separate

No. You are suggesting a very limited way of looking at how to work self defence. The striking and submissions are part of the set ups and positioning.

So if I am on my back for example I could attack with a guillotine choke. But it will not work unless I have guard.

A common defence from guillotine choke is to defend the guard and slip into side control. No guard. No choke. (except under rare head arm variations)

This is a very common grappling mistake trying to do a submission without the set up.

The best fighters have better set ups. That is their secret sauce.

 

[ballen0351]

Techniques that wouldn't be as easy or efficient to apply if you weren't in the guard.

I totally agree with you. I'm just saying your not using guard alone. Your using other techniques

 

[ballen0351]

No. You are suggesting a very limited way of looking at how to work self defence.

No I'm saying self defense is far more complicated then any single move or techniques. The guard all by itself isn't enough

The striking and submissions are part of the set ups and positioning.

So if I am on my back for example I could attack with a guillotine choke. But it will not work unless I have guard.

A common defence from guillotine choke is to defend the guard and slip into side control. No guard. No choke. (except under rare head arm variations)

This is a very common grappling mistake trying to do a submission without the set up.

The best fighters have better set ups. That is their secret sauce.

Yep I agree they all set up OTHER techniques from the guard because the guard alone won't work.

 

[kuniggety]

I don't understand what the argument is. The guard is the setup to use many techniques. It is an offensive position that turns the tables and allows you to attack from what many would consider a defensive position (the bottom). How would anyone consider it not to be a self defense technique?

Furthermore, the guard itself CAN be enough. You can indefinitely clinch/hold someone on your closed guard just to control them until help arrives.

 

[Buka]

I totally agree with you. I'm just saying your not using guard alone. Your using other techniques

I agree. I'm thinking we could say that about a lot of things in the Arts.

 

[drop bear]

No I'm saying self defense is far more complicated then any single move or techniques. The guard all by itself isn't enough

Yep I agree they all set up OTHER techniques from the guard because the guard alone won't work.

Yeah. Ok.

But.

When you say that the guard itself is not enough mabye you should do a submission or something from there. I was taking that as a given. I mean who just trains the guard with out applying it in some way?

 

[ballen0351]

Yeah. Ok.

But.

When you say that the guard itself is not enough mabye you should do a submission or something from there. I was taking that as a given. I mean who just trains the guard with out applying it in some way?

It may be a given but the original topic was only about the guard not all the extra "givens"

 

[ballen0351]

Furthermore, the guard itself CAN be enough. You can indefinitely clinch/hold someone on your closed guard just to control them until help arrives.

How do you know help is coming ? How long you going to wait for help?
Your attacked alone in your house it could be hours or days before people start wondering where you are. You just going to hold the attacker in guard until your newspapers start to stack up and your neighbors call the police to check on you? No of course not. Your going to move from the guard to something else to end the situation and get away or get help

 

[ballen0351]

I agree. I'm thinking we could say that about a lot of things in the Arts.

Absolutely there isn't a single perfect self defense technique. Someone said earlier in the post pull a gun. I went to a call last night a guy was shot point blank in the face and was walking and talking (kinda) with a hole in his face. There always needs to be a "what next" until your totally out of the situation

 

[FriedRice]

That's great but that's not self defense your not going to squeeze a murderer or mugger or rapist into submission with your thighs in guard. It's very important in the sport of BJJ but we're talking about just the guard in self defense

Like I said, you don't know what the BJJ Guard is. The squeezing, as you put it....is to maintain control while setting up for something...whether a sweep or submission. Don't you think that someone in your guard is going to try to get out of it while also, striking at you? The squeezing is to limit their attacks and struggles.

A lot of this depends on the skill level of the BJJ. Some play it safe by getting the guard first, establish control, then sweep or submission. Others, starts going for the triangle before they even hit the ground.