The Guard in self defense?

[Tony Dismukes]

Considering Hatsumi's Judo background before he "discovered" Ninjutsu, that doesn't surprise me.

It's well-documented that Hatsumi learned Togakure Ryu and the other arts which go into the Bujinkan from Toshitsugu Takamatsu, so if the scare quotes around "discovered" are meant to indicate that he actually secretly fabricated the art, then that accusation should be aimed at Takamatsu.

I considered that there might be some judo influence in the technique, but I've never seen that particular sequence (jump guard to double ankle grab sweep to kick) in any judo reference. Elder could probably tell us if there's some obscure judo source for the kata.

 

[Hanzou]

It's well-documented that Hatsumi learned Togakure Ryu and the other arts which go into the Bujinkan from Toshitsugu Takamatsu, so if the scare quotes around "discovered" are meant to indicate that he actually secretly fabricated the art, then that accusation should be aimed at Takamatsu.

Duly noted.

I considered that there might be some judo influence in the technique, but I've never seen that particular sequence (jump guard to double ankle grab sweep to kick) in any judo reference. Elder could probably tell us if there's some obscure judo source for the kata.

Perhaps it emerged from Judo's sacrifice throws? In either case, I think it's interesting that the Akban view jump guard as a self defense method.

 

[marques]

Guard on Self-defence? With good quality ground floor and only one and untrained opponent? I think it's ok.
But I would prefer to be stand up, always. To see (better and more), to run (readily), to fight (faster)...

 

[Hanzou]

Guard on Self-defence? With good quality ground floor and only one and untrained opponent? I think it's ok.
But I would prefer to be stand up, always. To see (better and more), to run (readily), to fight (faster)...

Eh, I think the guard has proven to be just as effective against trained opponents as untrained opponents.

As for ground quality, unless you're rolling around in lava, or a bed of hyperthermic needles, you'll be just fine.

 

[ballen0351]

Guard is fine temporarily but then what. You just going to lay there and hope someone calls the police or he gets bored and gives up? When your talking self defense you goal should be get away. Hard to do laying on your back holding the other guy between your legs

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Guard is fine temporarily but then what. You just going to lay there and hope someone calls the police or he gets bored and gives up? When your talking self defense you goal should be get away. Hard to do laying on your back holding the other guy between your legs

Did you read my earlier post? The point of guard is absolutely not to just lay there and hope the other guy gives up.

 

[ballen0351]

Did you read my earlier post? The point of guard is absolutely not to just lay there and hope the other guy gives up.

Yep read your post. I wasn't addressing my comments to you. I was answering the original question about the guard. The guard is fine but then what. There is no single perfect technique. It would be the ssme as asking what role should the punch play in self defense. Well the punch is fine but then what. There is no single thing you can do that poof you defended yourself. .. well except maybe running farther and faster then your attacker

 

[Hanzou]

Guard is fine temporarily but then what. You just going to lay there and hope someone calls the police or he gets bored and gives up?

No, you're either going to break their arms, break their legs, choke them out, or sweep them.

All from the guard position.

 

[marques]

Eh, I think the guard has proven to be just as effective against trained opponents as untrained opponents.
As for ground quality, unless you're rolling around in lava, or a bed of hyperthermic needles, you'll be just fine.

Your opinion.
My opinion is that not perfect floor bored me in a real situation (and I always trained on concrete, or wood floor at the best). And ground fight against trained opponents takes more time than against untrained opponents or from stand up, usually.
Consistently, I need half a second to submit from the guard (if they're not too fat). Anyway, I still prefer stand up. Go to the guard also takes time...

 

[ballen0351]

No, you're either going to break their arms, break their legs, choke them out, or sweep them.

All from the guard position.

Right all extra stuff not the "guard" itself. So does the guard have a place in self defense sure sure small temporary one more like a place holder. But the guard itself is pointless

 

[Hanzou]

Right all extra stuff not the "guard" itself. So does the guard have a place in self defense sure sure small temporary one more like a place holder. But the guard itself is pointless

What a ridiculous line of argumentation. The guard is the position that allows those techniques to be performed. Performing a Kimura or a sweep from guard isn't extra stuff, it's what you're supposed to do while in that position. So no, you wouldn't just be lying there with you legs wrapped around your opponent, you'd be on the attack.

 

[Hanzou]

Your opinion.
My opinion is that not perfect floor bored me in a real situation (and I always trained on concrete, or wood floor at the best). And ground fight against trained opponents takes more time than against untrained opponents or from stand up, usually.
Consistently, I need half a second to submit from the guard (if they're not too fat). Anyway, I still prefer stand up. Go to the guard also takes time...

Fighters have used the guard in professional fights, so yes it does work against skilled opponents.

Clearly fighting against a skilled opponent may take more time, but there are times when you simply can't control the tempo, and have to wait for an opening. There's also times where you'll be forced to the ground, or being on the ground gives you an advantage. The guard plays right into that. Being able to remain standing, or maintaining top position might be ideal, but sometimes you're not in an ideal situation.

 

[Danny T]

In full agreement that guard is more than just laying on your back with your legs wrapped around the opponent. One 'should' be attacking and moving into other positions from guard. Within the attacks out of guard if they fail one should be able to transition back into guard, regain control and attack again. All a part of the guard game.
However, the guard just as any other part of the game can be defeated.

 

[ballen0351]

What a ridiculous line of argumentation. The guard is the position that allows those techniques to be performed. Performing a Kimura or a sweep from guard isn't extra stuff, it's what you're supposed to do while in that position. So no, you wouldn't just be lying there with you legs wrapped around your opponent, you'd be on the attack.

It isn't the guard either. Your making my point for me. The guard is nothing it's a place holder and temporary position it's not attacking or defending. The actual guard is like a stance buy on the ground. With out the sweep or Kimura or any other "extra" technique the guard is just laying there.

 

[Hanzou]

It isn't the guard either. Your making my point for me. The guard is nothing it's a place holder and temporary position it's not attacking or defending. The actual guard is like a stance buy on the ground. With out the sweep or Kimura or any other "extra" technique the guard is just laying there.

So if I used my closed guard to tighten my legs around someone's waist to make them feel uncomfortable, and break their posture with hip movement, and grips, that's not attacking them?

 

[FriedRice]

So my questions are as follows; What is the Guard's place in self defense? Is the Guard a dominant, inferior, or neutral position? Should people learn to fight from Guard, or better utilize their training time elsewhere?

This is such a difficult question to answer as there are so many variables.

Like someone who don't know much about BJJ would think that it's a bad position in SD. And they usually thinks that this is all that a BJJ would do, is to pull guard. Worse, they usually thinks that this is all that an MMA fighter would do, which is pretty funny and shows that they don't really understand what's going on when they're watching an MMA fight.

If all that I knew was BJJ and had to fight in the streets. I would close the distance, clinch, and with the momentum.....try to lift them up as high as possible and crash them down onto the cement with my body weigh following down right on top of them for the ride. They should be pretty hurt right now. Then I'd get the full mount, establish control and start raining punches. And the crappy, untrained punches of a BJJ only guy, is still going to do a lot of damage when it's raining downwards with optimum leverage...striking the other guy's head that is sandwiched to the cement with very little room for head movement to dodge.

Why pull guard for? I'd train guard though, all types of guards....for offense and defense...all day w/o a complaint. Because if someone was kicking my *** standing up....and then, proceed to kick my *** on the ground also.....then the Guard is my BEST option to stay alive.

 

[ballen0351]

So if I used my closed guard to tighten my legs around someone's waist to make them feel uncomfortable, and break their posture with hip movement, and grips, that's not attacking them?

No

 

[Danny T]

So if I used my closed guard to tighten my legs around someone's waist to make them feel uncomfortable, and break their posture with hip movement, and grips, that's not attacking them?

It would certainly be a major part of a guard attack. Just as stepping in aggressively is a part of a striking attack.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

It isn't the guard either. Your making my point for me. The guard is nothing it's a place holder and temporary position it's not attacking or defending. The actual guard is like a stance buy on the ground. With out the sweep or Kimura or any other "extra" technique the guard is just laying there.

Using the stance analogy - if the title of the thread was "the boxing stance in self-defense", would you be making comments about standing around in a boxing stance like a statue waiting for someone to call the police? Or would you recognize from context the question concerned the usefulness of the boxing stance as a mobile platform for executing defensive and offensive techniques?

For what it's worth, when people who actually train in the use of the guard speak of "developing one's guard" or "learning guard techniques", they are talking about the whole shebang - protecting oneself, controlling the opponent, and executing chokes, jointlocks, sweeps, and even strikes from the guard. (Personally, I also include escaping to my feet as an important aspect of the guard game, but not everybody stretches the term that far.)

 

[marques]

So if I used my closed guard to tighten my legs around someone's waist to make them feel uncomfortable, and break their posture with hip movement, and grips, that's not attacking them?

Are you talking about to stretch your legs from the guard? Well done (above waist) it is my half a second submission or 'submission'. I don't understand why virtually everyone try to do very complex things from the guard before try this one! That doesn't work (only?) against very big or very fat persons.