The essence of Tai Chi push hand kung fu

[Appledog]

My long fist teacher was a peaceful person (he passed away at age of 97). He always liked to talk about Wude - MA morality. One day I asked him why he trained iron palm. His respond was to hurt his enemy. The term "peaceful person" had different meaning for me after that day.

Am I your enemy?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Am I your enemy?

What make you to ask this question?

I have 2 MA teachers in my life. In a fight, my

- long fist teacher would pull me back.
- SC teacher would put a knife into my hand.

One year, I took my US SC team to compete in Taiwan (1984). When we passed by Hawaii, we were eating in a restaurant. One of my students had argument with someone. My SC teacher put a steak knife right in front of my student's dinner table with a loud noise. That scared his opponent away.

I respect my SC teacher's spirit (霸气 - Ba Qi). If I want to be a peaceful person, I probably won't train MA at all.

 

[Appledog]

What make you to ask this question?

Who is the enemy that you need to chop his head off with a guandao?

I don't think I am your enemy and you are not mine, in fact I like you and I want to visit you someday

I saw a teacher one day, take his whole school out to a thai restaraunt one day. To celebrate their victory in the tournament. The master got into a disagreement with the restaraunt owner about the bill. So he took him into the street and beat him bloody in the street. He needed an ambulance. That is the kind of thing that I don't like.

If my teacher put a steak knife in front of someone having an argument I would feel strange. Just an argument? It better have been something important

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If my teacher put a steak knife in front of someone having an argument I would feel strange. Just an argument? It better have been something important

That's why I said my SC teacher had "霸气(Ba Qi) - lion spirit" that I respect a lot. Of course, to be a number one assassin for Chinese spymaster "戴笠 Dai Li", his experience was difficult to reproduce.

My students told me that I'm not the person that they would like to meet in a dark alley. That comment made me to feel pretty good. At lease I have developed a small percentage of my SC teacher's "霸气(Ba Qi) - lion spirit".

 

[Xue Sheng]

I trained with a Guandao.....

and what the heck is going on in this thread.......

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

and what the heck is going on in this thread.......

Is MA training for peace, or for violence? Is Taiji too peaceful for dealing with violence?

 

[windwalker099]

Would appreciate remaining on a topic otherwise start a new thread..

An overview of Taiji methods of push hands (推手, Tuī Shǒu) contrasting different methods and rule sets.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Would appreciate remaining on a topic otherwise start a new thread..

Why do you think to use Taiji skill to deal with violence is not on topic?

 

[windwalker099]

Why do you think to use Taiji skill to deal with violence is not on topic?

Why do you feel it's necessary to talk about something that's not on topic.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Why do you feel it's necessary to talk about something that's not on topic.

It's easy to stay on topic if you ignore people's questions.

Someone asked me a question and I had to respond to it.

Am I your enemy?

Also, I try to respond to someone's question.

What's wrong with the devilish thought?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Why do you feel it's necessary to talk about something that's not on topic.

What do you think about this discussion?

A: Taiji PH is ...
B: Who is your Taiji teacher?
A: Sorry my Taiji teacher has nothing to do with this discussion. Please stay on topic.
B: ...

 

[windwalker099]

Last time in another forum, I tried to change "What is Taiji skill" to "How to develop/test Taiji skill", the OP in that thread also said, "Please stay on topic". I left that forum right after that comment.

Appreciate your insight and experience. Feel we share many of the same thoughts..
No point in responding to something not relevant.

There is only one point to the study....
although this point may be different for different people.

There are those who know this and others who do not...

It would be better for you and others to share, their thoughts relative to the topic.
Not be sidetracked....

Push hands is not fighting; it is a training method that has been turned into a competition.
Those I've met in Taiwan and China, understand that "it's not fighting," they enjoy the competitive aspects.

They can be rough in their approach. It’s a good way to test whether the principles of Taiji that one claims to practice can actually work in practice. With those, who don't necessarily follow the tenets strictly within a context that most know, agree with, spoken or unspoken...

Some talk about correct practice, and incorrect practice.

Outside of the taiji gym they train in, in meeting with others
they don't seem to understand it's their own practice that is being tested,
not the ones they meet with..

 

[Xue Sheng]

Is MA training for peace, or for violence?

Martial Arts is, the way most train today, a peaceful (safe) training environment, that gives you skill to deal with a violent confrontation you hope never comes

Is Taiji too peaceful for dealing with violence?

no

 

[Xue Sheng]

Yang Jwing Ming

I have a couple of push hands seminars coming up soon at YMAA

 

[Appledog]

Why do you feel it's necessary to talk about something that's not on topic.

It is on topic. Out of context violence is equivalent to out of context techniques in push hands -- such as starting from a position with one hand on the chest, or grabbing the back of the neck during an 'application'. You might as well suddenly kick someone in the balls during push hands -- push hands it is not, the idea that you can use this technique to win is a violation of the tradition. The discussion over where to use violence appropriately, and under what conditions, is a direct extension of this discussion.

 

[windwalker099]

It is on topic. Out of context violence is equivalent to out of context techniques in push hands -- such as starting from a position with one hand on the chest, or grabbing the back of the neck during an 'application'. You might as well suddenly kick someone in the balls during push hands -- push hands it is not, the idea that you can use this technique to win is a violation of the tradition. The discussion over where to use violence appropriately, and under what conditions, is a direct extension of this discussion.

If you think so..

I've had people try single-leg takedowns and other techniques on me. If your skill is correct, in most cases, it's not possible. Part of the subject of this thread.

However, "push hands" is not fighting. Some may feel it is and try to make it so.
When you have the skill to demonstrate why it's not, others can understand. Talking about it alone doesn't work.

Tradition in martial arts has a broad range.
Not everyone practices with the same traditions in mind.
This is important to understand outside of one's own practice gym.

 

[Same Trick]

Is MA training for peace, or for violence? Is Taiji too peaceful for dealing with violence?

Yang banhou killed his daughter during spear sparring

 

[Same Trick]

Sure push hands isn’t fighting, but limiting away one’s spirit from the possibility of fighting during the practice is there then any true skill to be gained in the sense of proper distance/positioning/timing ?

 

[Xue Sheng]

Yang banhou killed his daughter during spear sparring

Per my shifu, this is why traditional Yang now has staff and not spear

 

[windwalker099]

Sure push hands isn’t fighting, but limiting away one’s spirit from the possibility of fighting during the practice is there then any true skill to be gained in the sense of proper distance/positioning/timing ?

Boxers punch a speed bag for timing and rhythm
Skipping rope coordinates breath, body, and mind

Do boxers train these activities with "fighting" in mind, or do they focus on developing specific skills, understanding that these will enhance their overall fighting ability?

Similarly, internal practices need a live body to train with in order to understand the level of development. Just as boxers use the speed bag, rope skipping, running, etc., to build attributes that are later integrated into the skill of fighting.

The difference, rope skipping, bag work with inanimate objects, are practices for the body to be integrated through sparring.

Internal work needs a " live body" to work with, to test and refine inner practices...
later to be integrated through sparring

The problem with push hands, a training method turned into a competition, the skill development is often neglected in favor of optimizing for the rules to gain an advantage during competition.

By doing so they destroy the

the sense of proper distance/positioning/timing ?

Often seen in the public fails of long time practitioners in meeting with those who don't do push hands,
they do fighting