The essence of Tai Chi push hand kung fu

[Xue Sheng]

In my experience and practice, this intent is one of the things that blocks the development of the skills we practice.

I'm sorry, but the following families would disagree, Chen, Yang, Wu, Sun and Hao... also Zhaobao village, Cheng Manching, Willaim CC Chen, TT Liang, Liang Shouyu, Yang Zwing Ming, Fu Zhongwen, Tung Ying Chieh, Mak Ying Po, my Shifu, and the Tung/Dong family and many many more, and I disagree too

But that begs the question, intent where? or intent When?

This is why competitive push hands is not ideal as a practice, outside of the competition itself
which people practice for....

Competitive push hands, from a traditional perspective, is garbage

 

[windwalker099]

I'm sorry, but the following families would disagree, Chen, Yang, Wu, Sun and Hao... also Zhaobao village, Cheng Manching,

Me too. For others not understanding a shared experience, it can seem like they expect what's shared to be some kind of canon for everyone to follow.

Have met with practitioners from each of the families listed. For most of them, their practices are different, perhaps due to their level or other factors. They were not very effective in whatever they were trying or thinking of doing.

A common expression was, "Let's try that again."

To be clear, "push hands" for me is a practice to develop certain skill sets. Others may feel differently.

When I have met with them, it was in the spirit of testing "my" practice, not theirs.

You might know that within the Yang family traditions, there are things that were not passed down outside of the family.


wang yen-nien talks about zhang qinlin

Something in Jianhou's heart had changed. Yangjia Michuan Taijiquan was not something that was taught to many
students. It was taught to just one person -only to one who would keep it and pass it on.
Why not teach it to two or more?

During the Qing Dynasty, Yang Luchan had become famous, and was invited by the emperor to teach at the emperor's court.
Luchan was unwilling to teach his personal martial art to a foreign ruler that he felt was suppressing the country. In addition, Yang was a Han, and the emperor was a Manchu.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Me too, sorry for others not understanding an experience that has been shared.
Seemingly expecting what is shared to be some kind of canon for others to follow..

Have met with practitioners of each of the families listed,,,for most of them their practices are different.
Maybe due to level or what ever...not very effective with what ever they were trying or thinking of doing..

A common expression " lets try that again"

To be clear, "push hands" for me is a practice..to develop certain skill sets..
Others may feel different.

When I have met with them it was in the spirit of testing "my" practice not their practice.

To develop what skill set?

You might know that within the yang family traditions there are things that were not passed down outside of the family..


wang yen-nien talks about zhang qinlin

I know there are always things the all hold back from all but their best students or family. But I will be honest, I do not buy into the whole Yangjia Michuan thing, anymore than I believe Yang Zhenduo learned from his father, because he didn't, sorry.

I believe the entire Yangjia Michuan thing comes from only one source Wang Yennien...who also claims Cheng Manching as part of the Michuan group too, a claim no one in the CMC camp seems to make.... But then I don't believe all of CMC story either.

​

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

To develop what skill set?

That's my question too. Why does anybody want to develop any skill that cannot be used in fighting?

I have a partner drill that look very similar to Taiji PH.

1. A use right under hook on B's left shoulder.
2. B use over hook and cracking to counter A's right arm. B then force A to move in circle.
3. A use left under hook on B's right shoulder.
4. B use over hook and cracking to counter A's left arm. B then force A to move in circle.

1, 2, 3, 4 can be repeated over and over (just like Taiji PH). The purpose of this training is for A to develop "under hook", and for B to develop "over hook and cracking".

 

[windwalker099]

To develop what skill set?


I know there are always things the all hold back from all but their best students or family. But I will be honest, I do not buy into the whole Yangjia Michuan thing, anymore than I believe Yang Zhenduo learned from his father, because he didn't, sorry.

I believe the entire Yangjia Michuan thing comes from only one source Wang Yennien...who also claims Cheng Manching as part of the Michuan group too, a claim no one in the CMC camp seems to make.... But then I don't believe all of CMC story either.

​

good for you

No need to be sorry, or anything else, it's a discussion...
I speak from experience....ours and others might be different.
It's the differences that make life interesting...

To develop what skill set?

The skill set of my teacher, and others reflecting
the teaching of this teacher.


Master Wang Yongquan

內勁兒即太極勁兒，是神、意、氣的化合，不是神、意、氣的集中。
Internal strength, which is the strength of Tai Chi, is the fusion of spirit, intent, and energy;
it is not the concentration of spirit, intent, and energy.

 

[Xue Sheng]

The skill set of my teacher, and others reflecting
the teaching of this teacher.

Master Wang Yongquan

HIs teachers were Yang Jianhou and Yang Shouhao.... then he should have a lot of obvious fajin in his form. The Fajin was not removed until Yang Chengfu.

Internal strength, which is the strength of Tai Chi, is the fusion of spirit, intent, and energy;
it is not the concentration of spirit, intent, and energy.

I don't really know what that means as it applies to push hands. Fusion is making them one. Concentration is bringing close together..... I will leave it there for now.....

And it is also not really an answer as to what "Skill set" Skill being doing something well or training for a particular task

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The Fajin was not removed until Yang Chengfu.

It's funny that most of the Yang Taiji people don't even know what Fajin mean. One of my students wants to get his 4th degree BB. My assignment to him is:

- Add leg skill into Taiji.
- Add Fajin into Taiji.
- Change constant speed training into variable speed training (2 may imply 3).

I believe anybody who can achieve those 3 goals, that person will deserve a 4th degree BB.

 

[Appledog]

It's funny that most of the Yang Taiji people don't even know what Fajin mean. One of my students wants to get his 4th degree BB. My assignment to him is:

- Add leg skill into Taiji.
- Add Fajin into Taiji.
- Change constant speed training into variable speed training (2 may imply 3).

I believe anybody who can achieve those 3 goals, that person will deserve a 4th degree BB.

Ok, just go study chen style ^_^

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Ok, just go study chen style ^_^

Can you obtain power generation information from "common sense" (such as compress and release)?

All MA system should have power generation. Why do you need to go to any particular MA system to obtain such information?

Both power generation and variable speed can be seen in this non-Chen Taiji form video. This is what I will expect my student's Taiji supposed to look like (except by adding in more leg skill into it).

For example, by adding:

- outer hook into Peng.
- leg spring into Lu.
- sickle hook into Ji.
- inner hook into An.
- foot sweep into double pulling.
- inner hook into single whip.
- ...

 

[Xue Sheng]

It's funny that most of the Yang Taiji people don't even know what Fajin mean. One of my students wants to get his 4th degree BB. My assignment to him is:

- Add leg skill into Taiji.
- Add Fajin into Taiji.
- Change constant speed training into variable speed training (2 may imply 3).

I believe anybody who can achieve those 3 goals, that person will deserve a 4th degree BB.

Already there in Tung Ying Chieh's Yang style. He has 2 fast forms that vary in speed. Had Fajin, and kicks and sweeps

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Already there in Tung Ying Chieh's Yang style. He has 2 fast forms that vary in speed. Had Fajin, and kicks and sweeps

Not sure how many leg skills have been used in Tung's Yang Taiji. I haven't seen any Taiji guy ever use this "刀(Dao) - sickle hook"

 

[windwalker099]

I haven't seen any Taiji guy ever use this "刀(Dao) - sickle hook

this looks similar

application work from the same teacher

Hello,this channel is for traditional Tai Chi, boxing drills and methods of breaking moves; boxing theory explanation and actual combat usage;
It is intended to spread the practical training usage of traditional martial arts and Taijiquan, and to inherit and carry forward the real Kungfu of Taijiquan.Master Fang: the sixth-generation inheritor of Yang-style Taijiquan; the sixth-generation inheritor of Wu-style Taijiquan; the sixth-generation inheritor of Wu-style Taijiquan; the twelfth-generation inheritor of Chen-style Taijiquan; Wang Qihe, the fourth-generation Taijiquan Heirs from generation to generation.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

At 3.05 - 3.30, the "车轮步(Che Lun Bu) - wheeling step" is used nicely. By using the "leg skill", your opponent will fall down instead of being pushed away.

 

[Same Trick]

Not sure how many leg skills have been used in Tung's Yang Taiji. I haven't seen any Taiji guy ever use this "刀(Dao) - sickle hook"

Brush knee twist step, embrace return tiger to mountain , step back repulse monkey.
It’s such a common technique found in the taiji form

 

[marvin8]

Not sure how many leg skills have been used in Tung's Yang Taiji. I haven't seen any Taiji guy ever use this "刀(Dao) - sickle hook"

MMA gal uses kouchi gari (minor inner reap) in a fight, like "刀(Dao) - [inner] sickle hook."

https://imgur.com/Iy9hHXD

This past weekend at UFC 307, MMA gal uses kosoto gake (minor outer hook) in a fight, like "削(XIAO) - sickle hook"

https://imgur.com/FoF6cTB

 

[Same Trick]

For your practice, maybe that's how you see it.

In our practice, it's a sense of "emptiness."

To have a sense of guard means one has the "intent" to guard or prevent something by having the intent to do so, i.e., "guarding."

In my experience and practice, this intent is one of the things that blocks the development of the skills we practice. When I meet others outside my practice who play push hands with a "sense of guard" or similar mindset, it often doesn't work out well for them.

People watching might think, "Why doesn't the other person do this or that?" or "They’re overreacting."
In most cases, it's because they can't and are reacting to what they feel.

Taiji works on contact, depending on the nature of the contact, according to the level, "even before contact."

The practice of push hands is to develop this understanding while cultivating the skill.

Referred to as the "correct touch," with at least one person having this in training or in the group to help others. Without this, the level developed remains external, based on frame, counter techniques, and other factors.

This is why competitive push hands is not ideal as a practice, outside of the competition itself
which people practice for....

Interacting with those who do practice for competition, a good way of testing concept's in a somewhat controlled context to see if what one practices works, or needs adjustment.

As long as one keeps the purpose in mind and doesn't get caught up in the game.

For application after skill development, other skill sets need to be worked on, such as distancing, timing, and positioning.

"Start late and arrive first" means one is the point of interaction.
Change the point
"Following is leading, leading is following" a way to handle and control the interaction.

From the Taiji classics - “If there is up, there is down;
when advancing, have regard for withdrawing;
when striking left, pay attention to the right.”



As the concept of the taijitu(yin/yang) tells us that we live in a reality of duality so too have “guard” its opposite that with it exists in unity, as the above quote tells.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Not sure how many leg skills have been used in Tung's Yang Taiji. I haven't seen any Taiji guy ever use this "刀(Dao) - sickle hook"

That sweep in the video is in Wu Style

Tung has sweeps in the fast forms, but not that one

 

[windwalker099]

From the Taiji classics - “If there is up, there is down;
when advancing, have regard for withdrawing;
when striking left, pay attention to the right.”



As the concept of the taijitu(yin/yang) tells us that we live in a reality of duality so too have “guard” its opposite that with it exists in unity, as the above quote tells.

For you it means that..

For me, reading it refers to keeping round as in a ball. Don't be double-weighted, etc.

Is there a "correct"?

You have made references to mindset in push hands relative to your practice. I have expressed mine.

Of those I've met with similar mindsets to what you've mentioned didn't do too well in our encounters.
During my "practice", their "whatever" they felt it was didn't work out well .

some reading on mind set,

THE UNFETTERED MIND
WRITINGS OF THE ZEN MASTER TO THE SWORD MASTER

The Buddhist priest Bukkoku wrote:
Although it does not mindfully keep guard,
In the small mountain fields
the scarecrow does not stand in vain.

Again, we can speak with reference to your own martial art. As the beginner knows
nothing about either his body posture or the positioning of his sword, neither does his
mind stop anywhere within him.
If a man strikes at him with the sword, he simply meets
the attack without anything in mind.

As he studies various things and is taught the diverse ways of how to take a stance, the
manner of grasping his sword and where to put his mind, his mind stops in many places.

Now if he wants to strike at an opponent, he is extraordinarily discomforted. Later, as
days pass and time piles up, in accordance with his practice, neither the postures of his
body nor the ways of grasping the sword are weighed in his mind.

His mind simply becomes as it was in the beginning when he knew nothing and had yet to be taught
anything at all.

In this one sees the sense of the beginning being the same as the end, as when one counts
from one to ten, and the first and last numbers become adjacent.

 

[Xue Sheng]

You know, i spent 30 years in Yang style Taijiquan and all total probably 5 or so years in Chen. I’m back at Chen and all i have to say is once you get to Yang style things get mystical, esoteric, intentionally confusing and overly verbose. But then some of this can be attributed to misunderstanding of, or not knowing of, Chinese idioms. And mistranslations, and/or misinterpretations. Could also be the incredibly large number of people doing Yang… or at least think they are doing Yang, as compared to any other taijiquan style

IMO Chen is much more direct and a lot less mystical

For example 13 postures
If there is a up there is down
Strike left pay attention to right

That gets over thought, over discussed, overly explained and overly mystified in Yang

It is simply talking about eyes and where to look.

Xingyiquan is even more direct, probably why i like it best.

And i mean no offense, but this thread had gone a long way in getting me to rethink my MA goals and seriously consider making Taijiquan secondary to me, if even that high on the list

 

[windwalker099]

And i mean no offense, but this thread had gone a long way in getting me to rethink my MA goals and seriously consider making Taijiquan secondary to me, if even that high on the list

None taken

That gets over thought, over discussed, overly explained and overly mystified in Yang
It is simply talking about eyes and where to look.

For you...as with "Same Trick"

Both have interpretations, believing theirs is the only way to look at things instead of just 'a' way to look at things.
I focus on the results, my postings reflect this.

30yrs is a long time,,

If the words of others can change a mind or give pause.
Maybe what ever the practice is or was for you, you have it.
Now clarified..

Started taiji as an adjunct to my CMA practice at the time.
20yrs later meeting someone who would be my last taiji teacher,
dropped everything else in order to understand the method.

The thread stated as a commentary on various methods of a practice
With some commenting on correct vs incorrect based on mindset, practices, ect.

Others offering perspective's of "their" practice

Like a river meandering to the ocean, it has taken twists and turns.
Meeting the ocean, returning to the source.