The essence of Tai Chi push hand kung fu

[Wing Woo Gar]

Yang Jwing Ming

I have a couple of push hands seminars coming up soon at YMAA

My teacher! Every time you go see him it means he isn’t at home teaching me…

 

[Xue Sheng]

My teacher! Every time you go see him it means he isn’t at home teaching me…

He won't be there, it will be one of his senior students local to the area

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

He won't be there, it will be one of his senior students local to the area

Really? He is leaving November 7. Thought it was Boston. Which student?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Yang Jwing Ming

I have a couple of push hands seminars coming up soon at YMAA

I like both videos. I can see MA intention in both clips that usually I don't see in most Taiji PH clips. In these 2 clips, one person shows intention to grab the other person's wrist. The other person show intention to get away from his opponent's wrist grabbing. I also like the combat speed shows in these clips. IMO, this kind of training do have combat value. You can move in normal speed. You don't have to stay in old man speed.

I try to grab your wrist; you try to not let me to do it. You try to grab my wrist; I try not to let you to do it. After we have repeated it over 10,000 times, both of us will develop some valuable MA skill.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Really? He is leaving November 7. Thought it was Boston. Which student?

senior student from his days when his main school was in Boston. So he has been around longer than the California school

 

[Xue Sheng]

I like both videos. I can see MA intention in both clips that usually I don't see in most Taiji PH clips. In these 2 clips, one person shows intention to grab the other person's wrist. The other person show intention to get away from his opponent's wrist grabbing. I also like the combat speed shows in these clips. IMO, this kind of training do have combat value. You can move in normal speed. You don't have to stay in old man speed.

I try to grab your wrist; you try to not let me to do it. You try to grab my wrist; I try not to let you to do it. After we have repeated it over 10,000 times, both of us will develop some valuable MA skill.

I did much the same training with my Shifu.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

senior student from his days when his main school was in Boston. So he has been around longer than the California school

Jonathon?

 

[Same Trick]

Boxers punch a speed bag for timing and rhythm
Skipping rope coordinates breath, body, and mind

Do boxers train these activities with "fighting" in mind, or do they focus on developing specific skills, understanding that these will enhance their overall fighting ability?

Similarly, internal practices need a live body to train with in order to understand the level of development. Just as boxers use the speed bag, rope skipping, running, etc., to build attributes that are later integrated into the skill of fighting.

The difference, rope skipping, bag work with inanimate objects, are practices for the body to be integrated through sparring.

Internal work needs a " live body" to work with, to test and refine inner practices...
later to be integrated through sparring

The problem with push hands, a training method turned into a competition, the skill development is often neglected in favor of optimizing for the rules to gain an advantage during competition.

By doing so they destroy the



Often seen in the public fails of long time practitioners in meeting with those who don't do push hands,
they do fighting

I would equal Boxing equipment training with for example Taiji pole-shaking, PH is a sparring setting.
When boxers practice punching the striking mits the mit-holder do smack the boxer now and then if not keeping the guard correctly

 

[Xue Sheng]

Jonathon?

Jeffery

 

[Same Trick]

Per my shifu, this is why traditional Yang now has staff and not spear

Yes, this they also figured out in Japanese martial arts where they even in some cases put a padded cover on the tip of staff during sparring, can hurt anyway.

 

[windwalker099]

I would equal Boxing equipment training with for example Taiji pole-shaking, PH is a sparring setting.
When boxers practice punching the striking mits the mit-holder do smack the boxer now and then if not keeping the guard correctly

would not agree with this perspective. IMO a mistake many make

Mitt holders are not sparring with the ones they hold the mitts for; they are acting as targets. Similarly, those practicing push hands are not sparring with their partners. They are providing the necessary feedback through contact to understand if they can effectively conduct or manage energy.

This misunderstanding is why many question the practice in the first place, feeling that it is some kind of sparring practice or, worse, attempting to use it as sparring practice.

For me, the practice as done by most has been corrupted.
Something I have to de train by those I work with...de training means to allow them to try "what ever"
in a push hands context, and then seeing what happens...after awhile they get it, and focus on skill sets..

Be that as it may, in the Taiji world, push hands is one of the most common measurements of Taiji skill.

This mindset is one of the reasons why individuals who practice Taiji often face challenges when they spar with others who don't practice push hands.

Of course, others may have different opinions.

One of the things I work on when meeting people who think that what they do—push hands—is sparring,
helping them understand why it's not.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

PH is a sparring setting.

May be PH is wrestling setting?

 

[Same Trick]

would not agree with this perspective. IMO a mistake many make

Mitt holders are not sparring with the ones they hold the mitts for; they are acting as targets.

I didn’t say mitt-holder is sparring, I referring to a boxer must keep martial spirit even during such equipment training cause the mit holder may remind boxer if guard is off.

PH is a sparring setting even if it has restrictions, guard is essential

 

[windwalker099]

PH is a sparring setting even if it has restrictions, guard is essential

lets agree to disagree...

the idea of "guard" for me is antithetical to the idea of taiji, which talks about joining.



How you can you join with something you'er guarding against.

push hands, starts from a preset contact point.

Tends to miss a lot of key elements in "fighting"
like positioning, distancing, ...entering and bridging
closing the gap ect.

 

[windwalker099]

I didn’t say mitt-holder is sparring, I referring to a boxer must keep martial spirit even during such equipment training cause the mit holder may remind boxer if guard is off.

A boxer is not trying to join with something..they trying to prevent something joining with them.
Fist to face

different strategy

In KF Wangs, practice he is trying to join with the others body..."grappling "
What KF Wang, suggest is closer,

In my practice the joining is with intent...

Everyone has what they do as their practice....any statement I make is in accordance with mine.
Not hopefully to be taken as a defining statement for taiji in general..

It's not meant as such...

General practice guidelines by a noted master
He refers to pushing hands as rubbing hands...
focus a little different from those practicing for competition..

Master Wang Yongquan:

自己的意氣是不是通出體外了，要問對方。在初級階段，與對方一搭手，對方感到不過，就說
明內氣達到對方身上了。以後經過學練，逐步能"聽" "問""拿" "放"用意氣發人，進行技
擊。

To know if your own intention and energy (意气) are being projected outside the body, you need to ask your partner. In the initial stages, when you make contact with your partner, if they feel overwhelmed, it means that your internal energy has reached them. Through further practice and learning, you will gradually be able to 'listen,' 'ask,' 'control,' and 'release,' using intention and energy to affect others and engage in combat techniques."

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

He refers to pushing hands as rubbing hands...

I think PH should have purpose. For example, to guide my opponent's arms away from my attacking path so when I attack him, his arms won't give me any trouble.

 

[Same Trick]

lets agree to disagree...

the idea of "guard" for me is antithetical to the idea of taiji, which talks about joining.



How you can you join with something you'er guarding against.

push hands, starts from a preset contact point.

Tends to miss a lot of key elements in "fighting"
like positioning, distancing, ...entering and bridging
closing the gap ect.

PH is a two way interaction within the realm of martial arts, of course there must be a sense of guard. But I can agree that “Taiji tui-shou” kind of an oxymoron since ‘push’ indicate applying force against something, but as such it fits well as a force to developing defense against

 

[Same Trick]

I think PH should have purpose. For example, to guide my opponent's arms away from my attacking path so when I attack him, his arms won't give me any trouble.

Yes that way I would also count into “guard” skill, proactive guard perhaps, something as your ‘Rhino guard’ ?

 

[windwalker099]

PH is a two way interaction within the realm of martial arts, of course there must be a sense of guard. But I can agree that “Taiji tui-shou” kind of an oxymoron since ‘push’ indicate applying force against something, but as such it fits well as a force to developing defense against

For your practice, maybe that's how you see it.

In our practice, it's a sense of "emptiness."

To have a sense of guard means one has the "intent" to guard or prevent something by having the intent to do so, i.e., "guarding."

In my experience and practice, this intent is one of the things that blocks the development of the skills we practice. When I meet others outside my practice who play push hands with a "sense of guard" or similar mindset, it often doesn't work out well for them.

People watching might think, "Why doesn't the other person do this or that?" or "They’re overreacting."
In most cases, it's because they can't and are reacting to what they feel.

Taiji works on contact, depending on the nature of the contact, according to the level, "even before contact."

The practice of push hands is to develop this understanding while cultivating the skill.

Referred to as the "correct touch," with at least one person having this in training or in the group to help others. Without this, the level developed remains external, based on frame, counter techniques, and other factors.

This is why competitive push hands is not ideal as a practice, outside of the competition itself
which people practice for....

Interacting with those who do practice for competition, a good way of testing concept's in a somewhat controlled context to see if what one practices works, or needs adjustment.

As long as one keeps the purpose in mind and doesn't get caught up in the game.

For application after skill development, other skill sets need to be worked on, such as distancing, timing, and positioning.

"Start late and arrive first" means one is the point of interaction.
Change the point
"Following is leading, leading is following" a way to handle and control the interaction.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

"Why doesn't the other person do this or that?"

I don't understand how one can train MA without an imaginary opponent to deal with. When I punch/kick, I have an imaginary target.

As I have asked before, "If your opponent use under hook on you in PH, what do you do?"

Is "under hook" allowed or not allowed in Taiji PH?