The essence of Tai Chi push hand kung fu

[windwalker099]

I first design my strategy. I then find out the skills that I need to accomplish my strategy.
Those skills that may come from many different MA systems. This way I'm not restricted by any particular MA system.

If this is what you do, why the focus on "taiji"

Why not hung gar, choy li fut, wing chun, fut gar,
hop gar...ect

 

[windwalker099]

Bottomline, done right they both end up in the same place. Old saying is external goes to internal and internal goes to external

If that place is "fighting" would agree.

Would not agree that one leads to the other, they both start from the same place.
Do agree the difference is in training and developed skill sets.

The conversation's here reflect some of the views back in the 70s talking about CMA in general.
Noting that CMA used by those in the ring, didn't seem to reflect what was trained outside of it.

 

[QuantumKitty]

When people talk about "What is Taiji skill?", I always like to ask, "How to develop/test those Taiji skill".

I think it's interested to discuss "How to use Taiji skill to deal with clinch". If such skill does exist, all the wrestlers in the world will come and try to learn that skill.

There are certainly ways for Taijiquan to deal with the clinch - both in a civilized way and the unsportsmanlike way. The reason I bring this up is because like many Chinese martial arts, targeting the throat and other areas is within the old-school version of the art which is not nice or merciful to the opponent.

To go off on a tangent, one of the differences between "old-timers" in Chinese martial arts and modern competition Push Hands (as well as the sport of Shuai Jiao) is that strategically, they do not grab the opponent's torso with both hands.

So here is a martial art from the Zhang Family, and he talks about how Shuai Jiao has a sport mindset where they like to grab the waist and don't have hitting. But the opponent is offering up their eyes, throat, nose, etc... to you - all while both of their arms are preoccupied.

https://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzQ2NTMwOTY4.html

So when it comes to modern Push Hands, they have a sport mindset and a lot of their vulnerabilities are protected by the rules such as forbidding head control.

But I also don't want this to be an excuse or a replacement for more "civilized" and skillful approaches to dealing with clinches or being grabbed around the waist. Those exists too; but you probably can't find them on the internet as it relates to Taijiquan.

But on a strategic level, the mindset between old-school Taijiquan and modern competitive Push Hands is very different.

If you keep sweeping your opponent's foot, your opponent has to deal with your foot sweeping before he can do anything. It's so important to train how to deal with foot sweeping. But both foot sweeping and counter to foot sweeping are missing in Taiji PH training.

Sweeping and counters to foot sweep is all over the place in the PH I train. I love sweeping and tripping. Many applications combines sweeping and throwing together.

This is a matter of content being lost over time. Not all styles of Taijiquan have certain things. Many things are just lost to time but survived in other branches. This is also where people will get upset when you point out that they don't have X, Y, and Z.

 

[windwalker099]

Sweeping and counters to foot sweep is all over the place in the PH I train. I love sweeping and tripping. Many applications combines sweeping and throwing together.

Others also train them

Taijiquan push-hand hug and fall, a simple and practical quick fall training demonstration.

How to break the cross hug in Sanda fighting, the role of Tai Chi Fighting push hands in Sanshou

 

[Xue Sheng]

If that place is "fighting" would agree.

Would not agree that one leads to the other, they both start from the same place.
Do agree the difference is in training and developed skill sets.

The conversation's here reflect some of the views back in the 70s talking about CMA in general.
Noting that CMA used by those in the ring, didn't seem to reflect what was trained outside of it.

My Taijiquan shifu, even said that, and so did his teacher, done correctly they all end up in the same place

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If this is what you do, why the focus on "taiji"

I did try to integrate Taiji silk reeling into my rhino guard by using my body to pull my arms. When I tested it with my opponent, I found out it was just too slow. No matter how fast my body was moving, there was always a delay between my body and my arms.

This is why I have always believed the only skill that can deal with fast kick and fast punch are the skill that's worthwhile of training. Of course, after you have obtained a clinch, you will have all the time in the world to deal with your opponent. But until then, lighting speed is critical.

 

[Appledog]

I did try to integrate Taiji silk reeling into my rhino guard by using my body to pull my arms. When I tested it with my opponent, I found out it was just too slow. No matter how fast my body was moving, there was always a delay between my body and my arms.

This is why I have always believed the only skill that can deal with fast kick and fast punch are the skill that's worthwhile of training. Of course, after you have obtained a clinch, you will have all the time in the world to deal with your opponent. But until then, lighting speed is critical.

"...there was always a delay between my body and my arms." I don't understand, why there is a delay between your body and arms no matter how fast you are moving? If you move your body faster, does the delay go down?

 

[_Simon_]

"Internal" guys like to say the "internal" is superior to the external. But before you have developed strong external skill, your "internal" skill can be useless.

This is rather interesting KFW! In many systems I've seen (and in our own too), the forms taught definitely seem to go from being very external based at the lower grade curriculum end to more and more internal, internal taught later in the system. Ours start with standard Goju, then progress to Shorin ryu, then Hakutsuru (White Crane), definitely an internal progression. I think there's something to that... Given me food for thought, cheers John

 

[Same Trick]

If you keep sweeping your opponent's foot, your opponent has to deal with your foot sweeping before he can do anything. It's so important to train how to deal with foot sweeping. But both foot sweeping and counter to foot sweeping are missing in Taiji PH training.

In Feng Zhiqiang’s Hunyuan taijiquan foot sweep and other leg skill are standard.
But yes Yang and Wu TJQ push hand seem to neglect such, strangely since they are quite obviously pointed to in the TJQ forms.
both my Yang taiji and Hunyuan taiji teacher here in China teach and apply leg skills in PH,
I tried to find a clip of them doing such, but the closest I found is my hunyuan teacher doing … this (second vid from bottom)

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[Kung Fu Wang]

"...there was always a delay between my body and my arms." I don't understand, why there is a delay between your body and arms no matter how fast you are moving? If you move your body faster, does the delay go down?

By using the body

- push/pull arm model, when your body is moving, your arm hasn't move yet. When you use a whip, your hand move, but the tip of your whip hasn't move yet.
- chase arm model, it's much faster.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

both my Yang taiji and Hunyuan taiji teacher here in China teach and apply leg skills in PH,
I tried to find a clip of them doing such, but the closest I found is my hunyuan teacher doing … this (second vid from bottom)

微博

随时随地发现新鲜事！微博带你欣赏世界上每一个精彩瞬间，了解每一个幕后故事。分享你想表达的，让全世界都能听到你的心声！

m.weibo.cn

Good video. The knee seize is good counter to arm locking foot sweep. We don't see this kind of action often in Taiji PH.

 

[Appledog]

By using the body

- push/pull arm model, when your body is moving, your arm hasn't move yet. When you use a whip, your hand move, but the tip of your whip hasn't move yet.
- chase arm model, it's much faster.

Ok. In Tai Chi, we train "one part moves, all parts move". The idea that because of push-pull, one part moves and then other parts move later on doesn't sound right to me. Actually I went through this many years ago too. I was moving one part of the body and then moving other parts. I thought I was doing silk reeling but that's not quite it. It is, I believe, a stage you need to pass through before you can get silk reeling.

 

[QuantumKitty]

Ok. In Tai Chi, we train "one part moves, all parts move". The idea that because of push-pull, one part moves and then other parts move later on doesn't sound right to me. Actually I went through this many years ago too. I was moving one part of the body and then moving other parts. I thought I was doing silk reeling but that's not quite it. It is, I believe, a stage you need to pass through before you can get silk reeling.

In what I train, it's more like "Some parts move, some parts don't move" (Note: I made this saying up).

So to give a contrasting example. Some practitioners, when they turn their body, they roll their knee inwards because they think 'one part moves, all parts move', so they have everything move together in the same direction.

In contrast, some practitioners, when they turn their body, they actively keeps their knee stationary, and the act of not turning the knees inwards is what enables a coiling in the ribs/torso.

So it's like a spring. When you turn the top half and bottom half in the same direction, there's no twisting. But if you hold the bottom half still, then as you turn the top half, a twisting can occur.

 

[Appledog]

In what I train, it's more like "Some parts move, some parts don't move" (Note: I made this saying up).

If it doesn't move because it's going through a fixed point in space, then in theory you would not be able to touch the part that was not moving.

So to give a contrasting example. Some practitioners, when they turn their body, they roll their knee inwards because they think 'one part moves, all parts move', so they have everything move together in the same direction.

In contrast, some practitioners, when they turn their body, they actively keeps their knee stationary, and the act of not turning the knees inwards is what enables a coiling in the ribs/torso.

So it's like a spring. When you turn the top half and bottom half in the same direction, there's no twisting. But if you hold the bottom half still, then as you turn the top half, a twisting can occur.

A good point. What is interesting to me though, from the standpoint of research, is in the first example there is still not some part you can touch that is not moving. Is there some other requirement we could use to help understand this?

 

[windwalker099]

Interesting reflections on training methods and understanding…

What is labeled internal or external can be seen as distinctions of different theories used for transferring momentum to another body.

Using the mind to lead allows the body to move more efficiently and quickly.

The principle "when one part moves, all parts move" means that while all parts of the body move together, they do not necessarily move in the same direction or at the same speed.
Instead, they move relative to each other, much like the various movements within a rolling ball.

Taiji, employs both translational and rotational movements, which are often described as spherical. This is achieved by mentally connecting the virtual (intangible) and solid (tangible) parts of the body, creating a unified, responsive structure similar to a ball.

The practice done slowly, allows the practitioner to understand movement aligned with the theory, of movement with themselves, later through push hands one learns about joining and connecting with the other..

 

[windwalker099]

In what I train, it's more like "Some parts move, some parts don't move" (Note: I made this saying up).

when a ball rolls without slipping:

• The center of mass moves at speed v.
• The top of the ball moves at speed 2v.
• The bottom of the ball moves at speed 0.
• Points in between have speeds ranging from 0 to 2v.

 

[QuantumKitty]

If it doesn't move because it's going through a fixed point in space, then in theory you would not be able to touch the part that was not moving.



A good point. What is interesting to me though, from the standpoint of research, is in the first example there is still not some part you can touch that is not moving. Is there some other requirement we could use to help understand this?

I'd like some clarification on the usage of the word "touch". Are you saying that if one body part is stationary, it is therefore disconnected with other body parts that are moving?

If so, I don't that's necessarily the case. Suppose you have a rubber band. If one point of the rubber band was fixed in space, is it disconnected to the rest when you pull the other end away from it?

Or, consider Fixed Step Push Hands, are the feet not fixed in space? It's literally in the name: "Fixed Step".

Suppose you do Golden Rooster Stand on One Leg, you standing foot would be stationary, would it not? To me, it's about having an anchor.

 

[Xue Sheng]

If so, I don't that's necessarily the case. Suppose you have a rubber band. If one point of the rubber band was fixed in space, is it disconnected to the rest when you pull the other end away from it?

actually it isn't. If you stretch a rubber band it stretches in all areas of the rubber band, even around the fixed point. The fixed point is not the rubber band

Or, consider Fixed Step Push Hands, are the feet not fixed in space? It's literally in the name: "Fixed Step".

Suppose you do Golden Rooster Stand on One Leg, you standing foot would be stationary, would it not? To me, it's about having an anchor.

Actually it does not mean anchor, it is just a moment in time that it is not moving when you are talking Golden rooster. All postures have a transition point where they move to the next posture

As far as fixed step push hands, that is simply an early stage of training push hands, and even then it is not an anchor, that would be double weighted and that is not good. You are, in stationary push hands moving back and forth between substantial and insubstantial legs Like anything else you need basics before you move on to more advanced push hands

However there are stationary stances that are trained that talk about rooting, but even then you can not forget that at some point that posture/structure, has to move

 

[QuantumKitty]

actually it isn't. If you stretch a rubber band it stretches in all areas of the rubber band, even around the fixed point. The fixed point is not the rubber band

Actually it does not mean anchor, it is just a moment in time that it is not moving when you are talking Golden rooster. All postures have a transition point where they move to the next posture

As far as fixed step push hands, that is simply an early stage of training push hands, and even then it is not an anchor, that would be double weighted and that is not good. You are, in stationary push hands moving back and forth between substantial and insubstantial legs Like anything else you need basics before you move on to more advanced push hands

However there are stationary stances that are trained that talk about rooting, but even then you can not forget that at some point that posture/structure, has to move

I think you've lost me when said the fixed point is not the rubber band. If I don't move my foot, it's suddenly not a foot anymore?

And in Golden Rooster, is one foot not stationary during the act of raising your arm and leg? The transitioning hasn't happened yet unless you're saying the entire sequence is just one big transition and serves no other purpose.

And in Fixed Step, your feet are still stationary even if you are shifting back and forth.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I think you've lost me when said the fixed point is not the rubber band. If I don't move my foot, it's suddenly not a foot anymore?

And in Golden Rooster, is one foot not stationary during the act of raising your arm and leg? The transitioning hasn't happened yet unless you're saying the entire sequence is just one big transition and serves no other purpose.

And in Fixed Step, your feet are still stationary even if you are shifting back and forth.

did not lose you at all. the fixed point and the rubber band are not the same. but the foot is part of the same body that is involved in push hands. If a car is stopped it is stationary, but many parts can still be moving, and it does not mean the entire car will not, or cannot move

Also, stationary push hands is simply training for moving push hands