The essence of Tai Chi push hand kung fu

[Same Trick]

Interesting to note that in the video at 2:00 to 2:04 there is an exact duplication of a main move and end position found in seisan kata (said to be the oldest surviving karate kata).

Just fun little brainstorming on a TJQ- Karate connection- Seisan translate as thirteen, and 13 postures are the basis for taijiquan.

Zhang Sanfeng, the legend founder of taijiquan, in one tale of his life he hailed from Fujian-province, the same province from where much of Okinawan karate has its roots and influences and very much so the Seisan kata .

And to tie it (tighter) to the thread topic, the most traditional/original form of of push-hand practice - the single hand pushing is found as one of the pillars of Okinawan karate, especially among the styles where Seisan kata hold a strong position.

 

[Same Trick]

I worked out in the park. 2 guys came over and wanted to touch hands with me. Nobody ever mentioned about the rule.

if some comes up and want to have a go then of course it’s you that has the right to set the rules anyway you wish verbally or physically, I think you did the right way using your skills to give a lesson.

 

[windwalker099]

if some comes up and want to have a go then of course it’s you that has the right to set the rules anyway you wish verbally or physically, I think you did the right way using your skills to give a lesson.

Most people know the general rules, but the question is to what level of understanding they have.

Does one have to be thrown out to realize they already are?

For those with skill, at first touch, one can be thrown out; it's not really possible to do anything else.
Understanding this, they don't attempt anything further.

For those who don't understand, they might try something unusual or continue using more force and speed, thinking it will work.

Depending on the other person's skill level, they can neutralize it or throw the person out, depending on their intent.
and nature of the interaction...Teaching "demonstrating" , testing, or proving

Kind of changes the interaction a bit..

People interact on many levels, depending on skill and intention.

2-28 Peace Park Taipei, Taiwan. Our master is Jeng Shean Chih (Zheng Xian Qi). His master is Huang Sheng Shyan.The applications in this video were performed on me by my senior classmate, Huang Jeng Bin.His website is www.huangtaichi.org

The same applications can be used in a push hand setting...depending on intention and skill level...
for those unable to view the clip, the link to the blog explains whats going on...

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Why is clinching not allowed in Taiji PH?

Since "Pulling on arms or torso" is legal in Taiji PH, I have always assumed that clinching is legal too.

It is allowed in some forms of Tai Chi push hands, but not in others. Simplest thing is just to ask the person you're working with.

So, you try to develop some Taiji skills. But those skills are not combat skill. Why do you want to develop such non-combat skills in the first place?

I'm very far from being any sort of Tai Chi expert, but I've done a little push hands along the way and I enjoy playing with it. My impression is that it's a useful exercise for isolating a very specific subset of skills and attributes which can be helpful in fighting. That said, if a practitioner wants to have actual fighting skills then they will have to work other exercises to integrate those specific skills and attributes into a more generalized combative context.

I'm actually a fan of drills and exercises with restrictive rules on what is allowed in order to isolate specific skills. But they do have to be balanced out with more open-ended training where those restrictions are removed.

 

[Xue Sheng]

So, you try to develop some Taiji skills. But those skills are not combat skill. Why do you want to develop such non-combat skills in the first place?

Technically they are combat skills. They train

Listening Jing, Following Jing, Sticking Jing, Adhering Jing

All skills needed for fighing

 

[Xue Sheng]

It is allowed in some forms of Tai Chi push hands, but not in others. Simplest thing is just to ask the person you're working with.


I'm very far from being any sort of Tai Chi expert, but I've done a little push hands along the way and I enjoy playing with it. My impression is that it's a useful exercise for isolating a very specific subset of skills and attributes which can be helpful in fighting. That said, if a practitioner wants to have actual fighting skills then they will have to work other exercises to integrate those specific skills and attributes into a more generalized combative context.

I'm actually a fan of drills and exercises with restrictive rules on what is allowed in order to isolate specific skills. But they do have to be balanced out with more open-ended training where those restrictions are removed.

Exactly

 

[Xue Sheng]

I worked out in the park. 2 guys came over and wanted to touch hands with me. Nobody ever mentioned about the rule.

My concern is, if there are so many restrictions in Taiji PH, how can you develop any valid combat skill from it?

Of course, kick and punch should not be allowed. But if clinch is not allowed, it just doesn't make sense.

Should a Taiji guy be able to prevent this from happening in push hand?

View attachment 31762

You seem to be taking the name "Push Hands" Literally. Depending on the level, or the style, it is can be much more than pushing.

Look for some videos on Chen Zipiang doing push hands

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Technically they are combat skills. They train

Listening Jing, Following Jing, Sticking Jing, Adhering Jing

All skills needed for fighing

That's what I believe too. If those skill cannot prevent a clinching from happening, some trainings are missing there.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

For those with skill, at first touch, one can be thrown out;

If my opponent can push me, he can punch me too. But first he has to land his hand on my body. IMO, this is a valid training. If my opponent can do that to me, that means my defense is weak.

 

[Xue Sheng]

That's what I believe too. If those skill cannot prevent a clinching from happening, some trainings are missing there.

There are a lot of people doing push hands that do not know what it was really for, and many of those treat it only as a moving meditation

 

[Xue Sheng]

If my opponent can push me, he can punch me too. But first he has to land his hand on my body. IMO, this is a valid training. If my opponent can do that to me, that means my defense is weak.

Once watched a XIngyiquan teacher in Beijing doing push hands with his students. HE was watching them do push hands, and he stopped them, told them he hated the Taiji dance and showed them what to do, and that involved more aggression and a back fist to the head.

I did push hands with a Yiquan shifu and he liked what I did, told me I was very good (this was years ago) but every now and then he's say, "don't disconnect" and I'd have a back fist stopping just before my head

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

At 2.36, he uses "left arm wrap, right arm under hook" which is a valid clinch.

 

[Xue Sheng]

At 2.36, he uses "left arm wrap, right arm under hook" which is a valid clinch.

 

[marvin8]

That's what I believe too. If those skill cannot prevent a clinching from happening, some trainings are missing there.

Training push against kicking, striking, wrestling and locking should be a logical next step.

https://imgur.com/wfFyVXw

 

[windwalker099]

If my opponent can push me, he can punch me too. But first he has to land his hand on my body. IMO, this is a valid training. If my opponent can do that to me, that means my defense is weak.

If the opponent can land a hand on your body, it’s already too slow.

Different strategy...

Taiji focuses on "joining," not defending or attacking.

Three modes:

1. Before: Preempting
2. During: Intercepting
3. After: Neutralizing

These phases guide the movement and strategy in Taiji practice.
Pushing is neither the main nor the primary point of the strategy.

Some thoughts from a noted master

汪永泉授楊式太極拳語錄及拳照
Wang Yongquan Writings on Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan

練習揉手主要是為了"懂勁兒"為了練成真正的太極功夫，而不是為了爭強好勝，以致不擇手
段。我的老師楊澄甫說，揉手時，要用太極拳的功夫贏人，才能讓對方口服心服。

The prime reason for practicing Rubbing Hand is to “Understand Jin” and learn the true Tai Chi
Gong Fu, and not to see who is stronger or who would win, even using unsportsman like
techniques or with bad intention.

PH is a way of understanding what is "jin" how it's used.
Be able to distinguish using it from using force.

Essential for a method "taiji" that is based on developing and using it.
In this case the "jin" is said to be developed based on internal processes.

 

[windwalker099]

There are a lot of people doing push hands that do not know what it was really for, and many of those treat it only as a moving meditation

Care to share what you feel "what it was really for"

 

[windwalker099]

That's what I believe too. If those skill cannot prevent a clinching from happening, some trainings are missing there.

Had a student who's son was an amateur boxer.
He asked me to work with his son showing him things he could do in a "clinch" based on
push hands.

In this case it was not to prevent the clinch, but to be able to use the interaction of the clinch to his advantage.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Care to share what you feel "what it was really for"

I think I did that already. see post #45

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

1. Before: Preempting
2. During: Intercepting
3. After: Neutralizing

Again, here is my question. If you want to "intercept" me, how do you prevent me from obtaining a clinch?

If your opponent punches your face, or kick your groin, what should those 3 different responds be? Why don't Taiji guys train these 3 different responds through kick or punch?

In that famous Taiji vs white crane match, we don't see those 3 responds using by the Taiji guy. Why?

 

[Xue Sheng]

If your opponent punches your face, or kick your groin, what should those 3 different responds be? Why don't Taiji guys train these 3 different responds through kick or punch?

Has ant Taiji guy ever used these 3 responds in any boxing ring match?

To me those are all possible responses, DEPENDING, on the force coming at you, same as any other MA style,
1) stop it before it starts,
2) Block if not 1
3) Neutralize if possible (absorb) if not 1 and 2

And it is true, Taiji tends not to attack, but that does not mean it will not punch you in the face, it just will do it as defense.