The essence of Tai Chi push hand kung fu

[windwalker099]

Again, here is my question. If you want to "intercept" me, how do you prevent me from obtaining a clinch?

If your opponent punches your face, or kick your groin, what should those 3 different responds be? Why don't Taiji guys train these 3 different responds through kick or punch?

In that famous Taiji vs white crane match, we don't see those 3 responds using by the Taiji guy. Why?

You should say "you" don’t.

Other's might...

Tibetan White Crane was my first style.
The teacher in the match could be considered my great grand teacher through that lineage.

Taiji practice focuses on dealing with the intent of movement, not just the movement itself.
While dealing with the movement is secondary, we work with the intent before, during and once contact is made.

The historical match you asked about is only relevant to those involved or those using it for validation.

Your question about preventing a clinch seems technique-based. By understanding and dealing with intention, one learns to control and manage space. How this is done depends on the theory behind one's practice.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Why not use your own experience or others relevant to your expense as examples.

I try not to brag about myself. So far not even a single Taiji opponent that I have played with could escape my clinch. How to deal with clinch is like bread and butter to me. All the counters are in my blood. That's my personal experience.

 

[windwalker099]

I try not to brag about myself. So far not even a single Taiji opponent that I have played with could escape my clinch. How to deal with clinch is like bread and butter to me. All the counters are in my blood. That's my personal experience.

As expected for something you specialize in...

As a teenager practicing Tibetan White Crane, I felt the same way about the long arm techniques combined with the footwork. The style was unique in that it didn't have what I would call counters. Maybe someone more versed in the style could correct me if I’m mistaken, that was my experience.

principle based:

• Chan (殘, cán): Ruthlessness – Approach combat with unwavering determination. Weed out opponents completely. Don’t underestimate them.
• Sim (閃, shǎn): To Evade – Maintain balance and fluidity. Move like a wheel to avoid confrontation. Lateral movements and body angling are key.
• Chuen (穿, chuān): To Pierce – Exploit transitional moments. Seize opportunities when the opponent extends or withdraws.
• Jeet (截, jié): To Intercept – Anticipate and stop the enemy’s actions. Softness conquers hardness; strength exploits weaknesses. Judge motives to intercept effectively.

Unfortunately, I lost a match in Korea in the late 70s, which led me to explore another art, Northern Praying Mantis. A technique based art. In hindsight, a mistake, although it did lead me to find my last teacher some 20yrs later—an old man teaching Taiji in one of Beijing’s many parks, in plain sight...

Like the TWC, it was uniquely principal based. The outer movements rather simple..
although what made them work was not....

 

[QuantumKitty]

I try not to brag about myself. So far not even a single Taiji opponent that I have played with could escape my clinch. How to deal with clinch is like bread and butter to me. All the counters are in my blood. That's my personal experience.

That is not surprising at all.

I attended a Push Hand meetup. Some are teachers; some have decades of experience. Some are Yang Style. Some are Wu Style. Some had background in other Chinese martial arts.

It was a fun experience even though Push Hand meet ups in general will not help me grow in skill.

Their arsenal does not work on me - the same arsenal one finds all over the place online regarding Push Hands. Conversely, I had plenty of Taijiquan methods that works on them that they have never seen before.

Whether we did patterned Push Hands or freestyle Push Hands (lightly or intensely), it didn't matter. All I saw and felt were weaknesses that they are not aware of. I gently punished them over and over again.

Although I had a mere fraction of the years in experience than the rest of them, the sheer gap in skills rendered them to want to learn from me. Because they are in disbelief of my background, they asked if I practiced any "Kung Fu" or perhaps "Shuai Jiao", and I answered truthfully: No. It's less insulting to them if I had a background in other martial arts.

I am a "pure" Taijiquan practitioner, but I am also aware that even an individual with a mere few years of legit training can easily wreck many Taijiquan teachers who have been doing this for decades. The number of years one has spent training is almost a useless metric in Taijiquan.

If I look at the big picture, it's quite insane how much a year of training can be worth more than another person's decade of training. The growth rate is astronomically different. And I feel bad for them because it feels like they have wasted a lot of time and money - chasing the wrong things.

 

[Appledog]

It was a fun experience even though Push Hand meet ups in general will not help me grow in skill.

Maybe you need "tougher" opponents? Or do you think push hands in general isn't helping?

Their arsenal does not work on me - the same arsenal one finds all over the place online regarding Push Hands. Conversely, I had plenty of Taijiquan methods that works on them that they have never seen before.

What do you think some of those methods might be? Just time spent training or is it something specific to your school?

If I look at the big picture, it's quite insane how much a year of training can be worth more than another person's decade of training. The growth rate is astronomically different. And I feel bad for them because it feels like they have wasted a lot of time and money - chasing the wrong things.

It is always interesting to get a new perspective. What do you think the major difference is between you and the average push hands practitioner? Is it the fact you are a pure Taijiquan player or perhaps something else?

 

[windwalker099]

Their arsenal does not work on me - the same arsenal one finds all over the place online regarding Push Hands. Conversely, I had plenty of Taijiquan methods that works on them that they have never seen before.

Whether we did patterned Push Hands or freestyle Push Hands (lightly or intensely), it didn't matter. All I saw and felt were weaknesses that they are not aware of. I gently punished them over and over again.

Interesting, it would be good to see some video.
What do you feel was supposed to work on you?

There are many variations of push hands, depending on the practitioner's level and focus.
For example, how would you compare your skill set with what is shown here?

 

[QuantumKitty]

Maybe you need "tougher" opponents? Or do you think push hands in general isn't helping?



What do you think some of those methods might be? Just time spent training or is it something specific to your school?



It is always interesting to get a new perspective. What do you think the major difference is between you and the average push hands practitioner? Is it the fact you are a pure Taijiquan player or perhaps something else?

If I want tougher Taijiquan opponents, I have my classmates.

I think Push Hands is very helpful, but I am saying the level of skill in Push Hand meetups in general are not helpful because it's too low level. And I am saying that the teachers are also low level.

As for the methods, there are multiple dimensions to this such as:

• Martial Applications - So many people would say that Taijiquan is about "principles" and not "technique". Well... I'm sorry to say, but I know a lot of techniques. That doesn't not mean my practice do not have "principles". People love to talk about the "What"; they don't talk about the "How". They love to list principles, break up Chinese characters to find hidden secrets in radicals, recite the "Classics" as if they're holy scriptures. But they do not have a "How" to the "What". I simply just know a lot of "How".
  • It's also method of change. The ability to transition from one thing to the next.
  • When I say 'techniques', I do not mean just free-style Push Hands. I am also saying that the patterned push hands contains and transitions to plethora of techniques as well.
  • It is because people lack understanding of techniques or punishment, they have a "I can do whatever I want" attitude. The more I punish them, the less freedom of movement they have because I have installed fear into them that moving a certain body part a certain way is a bad idea. Their attitude transitions to: "I can do whatever I want... except this.... except this... except this.... etc...".
• Structure/Leg Foundation - Suppose I know zero martial application. Simply a rock-solid leg foundation will give a lot of trouble. A lot of the "wows" and confusion people had stems from the leg foundation. This is the primary reason why their arsenal doesn't work on me because much of it just goes into the ground. Regardless if it's brute force or "Song", neither worked. They've tried both on me. And we could say that there are aspects about the legs that are unique.
  • It's also the ability to recognize (either through sight or touch) weak structure and angles on the opponent.
• Strategy/Tactics - Angles, Trickery, Feints. The ability to play with the opponent's psychology.

Interesting, it would be good to see some video.
What do you feel was supposed to work on you?

There are many variations of push hands, depending on the practitioner's level and focus.
For example, how would you compare your skill set with what is shown here?

Because our structural foundation is very good, we have to be knowledgeable and sensitive enough to find or create weaknesses. If someone's structure/foundation sucks, then anything works on them.

Regarding your video, I, too, had people try to charge at me like a bull, and I have ways to receive it and toss them aside without moving my feet. Personally, I feel like bull rushing is rather cheap but very common.

As for skill comparison, I think I'd do quite well - partly because of how predictable they are. I pretty much just have to be prepared for their bum rush. Furthermore, I think the skill gap widens significantly outside of a tournament format because I know a lot of Push Hand methods that are against tournament rules. If I am allowed to control their shoulder and side of the neck, they're screwed - especially since they love to lean forward.

This also goes back to the topic of striking earlier. The Push Hand I practice takes into account of the dangers of striking. So people in tournament settings are not cognizant of that because the rules protects them. I love it when people lean forward.

 

[windwalker099]

This also goes back to the topic of striking earlier. The Push Hand I practice takes into account of the dangers of striking. So people in tournament settings are not cognizant of that because the rules protects them. I love it when people lean forward.

The writing is interesting

Having tested some of my own work in Taiwan with those who practiced for the
event...They are quite skilled in their own way, structurally very sound, a little rough
in their approach.

Watching something in a clip, not always the same as interacting with what is watched.
Would be good to follow up with clips...of the practice

Note:
Something I ask for out of interest in order to understand another's view point.
whether I agree with it or not. just helps to make things a little clearer..

regards

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

People love to talk about the "What"; they don't talk about the "How".

When people talk about "What is Taiji skill?", I always like to ask, "How to develop/test those Taiji skill".

I think it's interested to discuss "How to use Taiji skill to deal with clinch". If such skill does exist, all the wrestlers in the world will come and try to learn that skill.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The more I punish them, the less freedom of movement they have because I have installed fear into them that moving a certain body part a certain way is a bad idea. Their attitude transitions to: "I can do whatever I want... except this.... except this... except this.... etc...".

If you keep sweeping your opponent's foot, your opponent has to deal with your foot sweeping before he can do anything. It's so important to train how to deal with foot sweeping. But both foot sweeping and counter to foot sweeping are missing in Taiji PH training.

 

[Xue Sheng]

If you keep sweeping your opponent's foot, your opponent has to deal with your foot sweeping before he can do anything. It's so important to train how to deal with foot sweeping. But both foot sweeping and counter to foot sweeping are missing in Taiji PH training.

again, depends on the level of push hands and the style..... Zhaobao will take your feet out from under you. Higher levels of push hands of other styles will too. Southern Wu (in Toronto) trains break falls because of this

 

[Appledog]

If you keep sweeping your opponent's foot, your opponent has to deal with your foot sweeping before he can do anything. It's so important to train how to deal with foot sweeping. But both foot sweeping and counter to foot sweeping are missing in Taiji PH training.

Maybe it is there, but later? Certain kinds of push hands are designed to train certain skills. Single hand trains peng-lu, then pulling flowers, then four hands push hands, and then on and on, different stepping patterns.

Maybe it may appear to be missing but it is not, it just occurs later on, say, during or after moving step. I say, If you want to practice foot sweeps, do it But do it in "foot sweep push hands", not during pulling flowers, etc.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Maybe it is there, but later? Certain kinds of push hands are designed to train certain skills. Single hand trains peng-lu, then pulling flowers, then four hands push hands, and then on and on, different stepping patterns.

"Internal" guys like to say the "internal" is superior to the external. But before you have developed strong external skill, your "internal" skill can be useless.

You have to be able to deal with foot sweep before you can touch arm with your opponent's arm. In other words, the foot sweep and counter foot sweep skill is much more important skill than the "pulling flowers" skill.

In order to develop kick, punch, lock, throw, ground game, which order should you train?

You have to pass kicking range before you can punch. You have to pass punching range before you can establish a clinch. You have to take your opponent down before you can apply ground skill. So, the proper order to train MA should be:

kick -> punch -> lock -> throw -> ground game

Does it make any sense to train ground game before others? IMO, it doesn't make sense.

 

[windwalker099]

"Internal" guys like to say the "internal" is superior to the external. But before you have developed strong external skill, your "internal" skill can be useless.

Maybe in your mind...you heard this

Burning hand, iron palm, etc., are also internal skill sets.
They are external manifestations of internal cultivation. In other words, they follow a different development track, focusing on developing different skill sets based on the same concept of 氣 (Qi).

Understanding this distinction is crucial for comprehending the overall training and expected development.
It also explains why certain techniques or practices are not emphasized.

For those on the outside, it may seem unclear why certain methods are not practiced,
this understanding is key for those within the training.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Maybe in your mind...you heard this

Burning hand, iron palm, etc., are also internal skill sets.

Do you have to deal with leg skill (such as foot sweep) before you can deal with hand skill?

Are leg skills internal or external?

 

[windwalker099]

You have to be able to deal with foot sweep before you can touch arm with your opponent's arm. In other words, the foot sweep and counter foot sweep skill is much more important skill than the "pulling flowers" skill.

In order to develop kick, punch, lock, throw, ground game, which order should you train?

You have to pass kicking range before you can punch. You have to pass punching range before you can establish a clinch. You have to take your opponent down before you can apply ground skill. So, the proper order to train MA should be:

kick -> punch -> lock -> throw -> ground game

Does it make any sense to train ground game before others? IMO, it doesn't make sense.

It seems like you're confusing strategy with skill development.
Skill development enables and shapes the strategy put to use.

It makes sense to train the skill set first before exploring its application based on strategy.

Push Hands (PH) is not fighting; it started as a method for skill development and later evolved into a competition.

Like any competition, people train according to the rules.
Assuming they don't understand why or what they are training for is a mistake.

If one attempts to do some things suggested here in meetups,
the outcome will depend on the person they meet.

 

[windwalker099]

Do you have to deal with leg skill (such as foot sweep) before you can deal with hand skill?

Are leg skills such as "foot sweep" internal or external?

All Chinese martial arts are "internal" by nature.

I used to train what are called "iron broom sweeps," which I hated.
The instructor wanted me to specialize in it.

Example of usage not of training...

Some of the people I knew were quite good at it. I wasn’t one of them—it wasn't my thing.

The training alone took some time just to build the foundation and skill set. Afterward, the next step was understanding when and how to use it.

Some of the conditioning for the sweep involved conditioning the shins, both front and back, to take impact. This too was based on internal concepts used in Chinese martial arts.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Are leg skills internal or external?

Yes

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

It makes sense to train the skill set first before exploring its application based on strategy.

My thinking on this is different from yours.

I first design my strategy. I then find out the skills that I need to accomplish my strategy. Those skills that may come from many different MA systems. This way I'm not restricted by any particular MA system.

For example, my strategy is to use kick to set up punch. Use punch to set up clinch. Use clinch to set up take down. In the following clip,

- Kick set up punch comes from long fist system.
- Punch set up clinch comes from praying mantis system.
- Take down comes from Chinese wrestling system.
- Knee drop comes from "common sense".

 

[Xue Sheng]

Reading through this all I can get out of it is it is an internal vs external discussion and trying to prove on training modality is better than another.

Bottomline, done right they both end up in the same place. Old saying is external goes to internal and internal goes to external

Which way someone prefers to train is their choice. And going after an external art with an internal bias makes no more sense than going after an internal art with an external bias. Ultimately it ends up as a circular discussion that gets nowhere, if you’re lucky. More likely than not other show up, it becomes a flame war and the post gets locked.

By the way, I’ve trained both, just to let the combatants know.

Have a nice day