The essence of Tai Chi push hand kung fu

[Wing Woo Gar]

Wondering if you understood what you watched.




The video presented different methods of practice by various individuals, the commentator, presenting his perspective on the practice of softness.

The huge problem in the Taiji community might be the many who feel they have reached a certain level of understanding equate this understanding through writing, not by doing it.

Small story:

In 1993, there was an AAU Chinese martial arts tournament, with Phillip Starr as the director at the time. Doc Fai Wong, a friend of mine, was one of the judges for the Taiji and push hands competitions. The event was hosted by a local “拳道” (Kuntao) gym, a Hakka art.

The push hands event was open to all stylists. None of the Taiji stylists, including myself, placed in the event.

Notably, the guy I lost to came up to me later and said, “Out of all the people here, you're the only one who knows Taiji.”
Doc Fai later commented on my performance, “Your sticking and following are good, but you do not understand how to release yet.”

I did take 1st place in the Taiji forms competition using the 37-step at the time.

My point is that it’s not a problem for those with Taiji skill sets versus those without or not developed, commenting on what they see.

Those with the skill sets, understanding what they see, those developing them, or not understanding, tend to look for what they expect to see, commenting on what they don't.

Not a fan of push hands competition, although I understand the allure and need for it.

In Taiwan, many groups focus on local and national events. Having practiced with some of them, a good way to test oneself and make new taiji friends. It was quite interesting as most were not able to apply the method they practiced in our interactions.

One might ask why.

I’d say because the focus was on winning the event, not on developing Taiji skill sets that can be used outside of the context of push hands.

Another example:



Within a context, even someone quite skilled may not be able to apply their skill effectively.

"推手" (Tuī Shǒu)

In my practice, it’s a training method that helps distinguish the use of force from non-force.
For others, it may serve different purposes.

I don't regard it as the main defining aspect of Taiji practice.

Many can push, fighting is not about pushing.
.

My Sigung James Wing Woo born in 1922 Also trained with Lau Bun and lived with T.Y. Wong when both were involved with the Hop Sing Tong. It seems we may something in common.

 

[windwalker099]

My Sigung James Wing Woo born in 1922 Also trained with Lau Bun and lived with T.Y. Wong

A friend of mine practiced in T.Y.Wongs gym back in the day..
Got a chance to watch his practice at the gym..quite interesting...
Another friends teacher was Wong, Jack Man..

SF interesting beginning for CMA in the US

for those who might not know a street in Oakland was named after Bruce Lee

 

[isshinryuronin]

The distinction lies in whether the practice acts as a conductor of energy or as the originator of the energy. This highlights the fundamental difference between internal and external based approaches.

IMO the principle is the originator, and the physical technique is the conductor. You call this internal and external. But review my thoughts I posted earlier:

technique devoid of fundamental principles will not be effective/efficient. And, as you say, once the principles are internally ingrained, they will be outwardly reflected.

On the other hand, principles themselves are only theoretical potential needing technique to express themselves. Poor technique execution will not be able to properly translate the principles into action. And it is thru physical execution that the principles can be tested and refined and put to work! So, both are equally important and must be practiced and developed in parallel.

This is why most I think most all arts are both internal and external as both aspects are needed to make them work. This is why I really don't distinguish between them. In actual application they act as one. IMO, an art which over-emphasizes one over the other will not be effective in self-defense (IF that is the goal of the art).

 

[windwalker099]

IMO the principle is the originator, and the physical technique is the conductor. You call this internal and external. But review my thoughts I posted earlier

It may be your opinion, it hasn't been my experience.

All Chinese martial arts are internal. The distinctions arise in how this is expressed.

What some call external, the internal practices focus on making the external components stronger and faster.
For what is labeled internal, the external practices aim to make the internal more condensed and powerful.

Both aspects rely on the concept of 氣 (Qi).

The difference:

• One enhances the body for issuing force.
• The other enhances the body for conducting force.

Most examples of the latter become topics of discussion, which I have no interest in.

The Chinese use the word 勁 (Jin) — refined force. There are many types of "jin," each specializing in different aspects of the transmission or application of force.

There are ongoing studies related to fascia and its role in what are called internal arts.

---

A tentative discussion on Tai Chi and fascia theory

Tai Chi pays attention to form Qi and focuses on slowing down and softening the muscles. Whether the "jin" in it refers to the fascia system recognized by the West is still undecided. However, if we can better understand the structure of the body, it may help boxing. Understanding of frame and boxing principles.

For those wanting to get into the weeds

​

 

[Appledog]

The huge problem in the Taiji community might be the many who feel they have reached a certain level of understanding equate this understanding through writing, not by doing.

There's a lot of that too.

In Taiwan, many groups focus on local and national events. Having practiced with some of them, a good way to test oneself and make new taiji friends. It was quite interesting as most were not able to apply the method they practiced in our interactions.

One might ask why.

Well, living in Taiwan for 20 years and having visited Peace Park and many other places, I would ask the same question -- Why is it that most are not able to apply the method they practiced? My answer is simple, because the method they practiced is very different than the method being practiced in the majority of arm-circling push hands interactions.

Does that mean it is better or worse, you decide But interestingly enough the arm-circling style of push hands has become quite recognizable. Let's call it push hands type A. Commonly seen in parks across America and Taiwan, Origami's push hands videos for example. It is often used as a pretext to the kind of pushing and wrestling I was complaining about. And In the beginning of your video there was a kind of push hands which I will call push hands "B". This kind leads into clean applications where the opponent is not just hopped back gruffly but thrown head over heels.

The dichotomy is tangible. One kind of push hands leads into applications consistent with taiji theory, the other kind of a vague approximation of push hands designed to act as a three circle pretext to shoving and pulling. The kind of wrestling that emerges is not connected in any way with the kind of arm circling they do, either. Isn't it easy to see?

I’d say because the focus was on winning the event, not on developing Taiji skill sets that can be used outside of the context of push hands.

I wholeheartedly agree. Chen Man Ching said one must invest in loss. That was always a quote on my mind.

In our school we try to remove all thought not just ego. We have a classic that has been handed down many times, which states 'Breathe (37) times, make the breath long, easy and deep. Have not one thought, this is the secret key to unlock the heart'. This is just hunyuan theory, I guess, as our school is in the same vein as that.

Hunyuan is an ancient, central concept of Daoist philosophy and meditation practice. Hun means undifferentiated unity, the state of mind and being that occurs when one does not divide the world into concepts. In other words, hun is equivalent to inner silence. Yuan means origin or original. The importance of Yuan is attested by the fact that it is the opening word of Qian, the first chapter of the Yi Jing (The Classic of Change). “Original [Yuan], Penetrating [Heng], Auspicious [Li], Correct [Zhen].” This mantric phrase may be interpreted as four stages in the creation... (--https://www.qigonghealing.com/post/hunyuan-primordial-qigong-tracing-life-to-its-roots)

Therefore, Yuan Heng Li Zheng can be said to be a word formula. There are many such word character formulas.

As a final note, here is "Yang Family Push Hands" with Yang Jun, for comparison. This is as close as I have ever seen in a YouTube video as to what orthodox Yang family push hands will look like.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

the focus was on winning the event, not on developing Taiji skill sets that can be used outside of the context of push hands.

I once touched hands with a Taiji teacher in the park.

- I scooped his leg. He said, "No leg".
- I grabbed his arm. He said, "No grabbing".
- I got him into a head lock. He said, "No brute force".

In Taiji PH, if he could not stop me from doing those moves, should that be his fault?

 

[windwalker099]

Does that mean it is better or worse, you decide But interestingly enough the arm-circling style of push hands has become quite recognizable. Let's call it push hands type A. Commonly seen in parks across America and Taiwan, Origami's push hands videos for example. It is often used as a pretext to the kind of pushing and wrestling I was complaining about. And In the beginning of your video there was a kind of push hands which I will call push hands "B". This kind leads into clean applications where the opponent is not just hopped back gruffly but thrown head over heels.

No one here knows what or who Origami is. You might want to clarify your reference.
If you comment on others' work, consider posting your own work for comparison.

As a final note, here is "Yang Family Push Hands" with Yang Jun, for comparison. This is as close as I have ever seen in a YouTube video as to what orthodox Yang family push hands will look like.

As mentioned : "Those with the skill sets, understanding what they see, those developing them, or not understanding, tend to look for what they expect to see, commenting on what they don't."

Push hands for me a training device, different family styles have different versions of it based on their own unique characteristics..

Has "Yang Jun" entered any competitions to showcase his method of push hands?

If not, all that can be said is that he practices his family's method of training.
Outside of that, why would one consider him as an authority on Taiji outside of his family's style..

 

[isshinryuronin]

There's a lot of that too.



Well, living in Taiwan for 20 years and having visited Peace Park and many other places, I would ask the same question -- Why is it that most are not able to apply the method they practiced? My answer is simple, because the method they practiced is very different than the method being practiced in the majority of arm-circling push hands interactions.

Does that mean it is better or worse, you decide But interestingly enough the arm-circling style of push hands has become quite recognizable. Let's call it push hands type A. Commonly seen in parks across America and Taiwan, Origami's push hands videos for example. It is often used as a pretext to the kind of pushing and wrestling I was complaining about. And In the beginning of your video there was a kind of push hands which I will call push hands "B". This kind leads into clean applications where the opponent is not just hopped back gruffly but thrown head over heels.

The dichotomy is tangible. One kind of push hands leads into applications consistent with taiji theory, the other kind of a vague approximation of push hands designed to act as a three circle pretext to shoving and pulling. The kind of wrestling that emerges is not connected in any way with the kind of arm circling they do, either. Isn't it easy to see?



I wholeheartedly agree. Chen Man Ching said one must invest in loss. That was always a quote on my mind.

In our school we try to remove all thought not just ego. We have a classic that has been handed down many times, which states 'Breathe (37) times, make the breath long, easy and deep. Have not one thought, this is the secret key to unlock the heart'. This is just hunyuan theory, I guess, as our school is in the same vein as that.


Therefore, Yuan Heng Li Zheng can be said to be a word formula. There are many such word character formulas.

As a final note, here is "Yang Family Push Hands" with Yang Jun, for comparison. This is as close as I have ever seen in a YouTube video as to what orthodox Yang family push hands will look like.

Interesting to note that in the video at 2:00 to 2:04 there is an exact duplication of a main move and end position found in seisan kata (said to be the oldest surviving karate kata).

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Just for the technique discussion, at 3.24, when the white pulls his opponent, what if his opponent borrows his pulling force, use his left hand to grab on white's right leading leg, and take the white down?

 

[windwalker099]

In Taiji PH, if he could not stop me from doing those moves, should that be his fault?

If you agreed to the conditions, attempting something different it's your fault.
If you tried things not mentioned in the agreement and he continued, one might wonder why.
He would be the one to ask.

Once, a long while back, I interacted with a Russian Sambo player.
He and his friend were watching me and another person practicing. They asked what it was.

I jokingly said yoga. My friend clarified it was push hands and asked if they wanted to try, pointing at me.
Good friend.

The Sambo player tried to take out my knee, injuring it badly in the process.
Not showing any sign of being injured, I promptly tossed him a couple of times.
They left soon after.

My mistake was thinking they just wanted to try something different.
My friend's mistake was inviting them to an exercise practice.

"push hands" is a training device for me.
It might be something different for others.

If someone wants to test, they should do some light sparring instead of pretending, as some do,
that push hands is the equivalent.

Among taiji practitioners, In many places , PH is the way they test things..
there is a saying

"when in Rome do as the Romans do"

Respect is given to those using the same skill sets most feel
they are practicing at a higher level. Allowing them to feel
some of the things they talk about...

Attempting to do otherwise "not a good look"
might get you injured by those understanding the
rule change...

Peace park in Taiwan, with someone trying to use force not finding a place to apply it
to....The same day, had someone a "foreigner" try a single leg take down..

Kinda funny, as he was stuck, me asking what he was trying to do...

'

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If you agreed to the conditions, attempting something different it's your fault.
If you tried things not mentioned in the agreement and he continued, one might wonder why.
He would be the one to ask.

I worked out in the park. 2 guys came over and wanted to touch hands with me. Nobody ever mentioned about the rule.

My concern is, if there are so many restrictions in Taiji PH, how can you develop any valid combat skill from it?

Of course, kick and punch should not be allowed. But if clinch is not allowed, it just doesn't make sense.

Should a Taiji guy be able to prevent this from happening in push hand?

 

[Dirty Dog]

I worked out in the park. 2 guys came over and wanted to touch hands with me. Nobody ever mentioned about the rule.

I think the obvious question is: so why didn't you mention rules?

 

[windwalker099]

Of course, kick and punch should not be allowed. But if clinch is not allowed, it just doesn't make sense.

If kicking and punching are not allowed, why should anything else be ?

I worked out in the park. 2 guys came over and wanted to touch hands with me. Nobody ever mentioned about the rule.

If one does not know what the rule sets are maybe they should find out before hand.
The rules are generally known among practitioners, which might be why you were able to do the things
you mentioned...They not expecting someone to try them... happens

If they continued when it was obvious you were not following the game.
Why would they continue?

In China, and Taiwan, most will ask friendly or not..
even this is no guarantee...of what the intentions are.

My concern is, if there are so many restrictions in Taiji PH, how can you develop any valid combat skill from it?

How does one develop combat skills from skipping rope, running, or as some might do, hanging on a pole ?

The question itself, a good reason not to consider it as a type of combat practice, but more of a skill development..
Focusing on the skills that taiji, is noted for...

The difference in the aforementioned skill development exercise's, focus on developing attributes in which another body is not needed.

A living body is needed for the skill sets of what the practice of taiji is thought to be based on 氣 (Qi)

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I think the obvious question is: so why didn't you mention rules?

I didn't mind the rule. I just wanted to know how far he intended to go.

Since he was a Taiji instructor. I assumed he didn't want to do kick/punch. I didn't expect him to say that even clinching was not allowed.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The question itself, a good reason not to consider it as a type of combat practice, but more of a skill development..
Focusing on the skills that taiji, is noted for...

I'm very confusing here. Are you saying that Taiji PH skill is not combat skill?

So, you try to develop some Taiji skills. But those skills are not combat skill. Why do you want to develop such non-combat skills in the first place?

Why is clinching not allowed in Taiji PH?

Since "Pulling on arms or torso" is legal in Taiji PH, I have always assumed that clinching is legal too.

https://shorelinetaichi.com/wp-content/uploads/tai-chi-push-hands-tournament-rules.pdf

 

[Dirty Dog]

Since he was a Taiji instructor. I assumed he didn't want to do kick/punch. I didn't expect him to say that even clinching was not allowed.

So you made an assumption about the rules. It's been said that assumption is the mother of all screw ups.

 

[windwalker099]

So, you try to develop some Taiji skills. But those skills are not combat skill. Why do you want to develop such non-combat skills in the first place?

Why do you talk about combat
Have you ever trained for or been in combat?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Why do you talk about combat
Have you ever trained for or been in combat?

I was a 2nd lieutenant in Taiwan navy. I have gone through all the basic combat training as soldier and sergeant.

In order to preserve the essence of Shuai-Chiao’s original fighting science and its true application in combat, some of Grandmaster Ch’ang Tung-sheng’s students organized the American Combat Shuai-Chiao Association in the United States in 1990.

ACSCA History – Combat Shuai-Chiao 實戰摔跤

 

[windwalker099]

I was a 2nd lieutenant in Taiwan navy. I have gone through all the basic combat training as soldier and sergeant.

Then you should know the difference between what combat skill sets are versus what you talk about .

 

[Appledog]

If you agreed to the conditions, attempting something different it's your fault.
If you tried things not mentioned in the agreement and he continued, one might wonder why.

That's a great way of putting it. I would like to also consider that the reason for the conditions is often due to the necessities of training. In chaquan for example we have si shou. Punch and block, etc. It is entirely possible to "do something else" during chaquan but, if you have not trained the response from sishou first you may not be able to "notice" when someone does something different, and you won't be able to defend against it. On the other hand, paradoxically, if you agree to the conditions at first you can often train up some very interesting skills. Partners aren't trying to kill each other. We need to work together to achieve the best things

Peace park in Taiwan, with someone trying to use force not finding a place to apply it
to....The same day, had someone a "foreigner" try a single leg take down..

Kinda funny, as he was stuck, me asking what he was trying to do...

Nice photo ^_^

I have no idea what you guys are doing in the photo, I can't tell if there is back and forth or if he is just standing there trying to push. Maybe one of these days we will finally find each other in Peace park and we can take a photo together.