The essence of Tai Chi push hand kung fu

[windwalker099]

However there are stationary stances that are trained that talk about rooting, but even then you can not forget that at some point that posture/structure, has to move

. This may not be understood by some...

The movement between the feet, which influences the "cg" , rest of the posture and whatever it’s connected with through the contact point.

The training of fixed step is one way to train this concept. However, it is not the ultimate goal of the training, as it has often been misconstrued by competitive practitioners, thereby corrupting the original intent of the practice.

"Rooting" can be looked at in different ways. One perspective is that if a person can feel your root, it means they can act on the frame. If they cannot feel it, there is no frame for them to act on.

"I know him, he does not know me"

 

[QuantumKitty]

did not lose you at all. the fixed point and the rubber band are not the same. but the foot is part of the same body that is involved in push hands. If a car is stopped it is stationary, but many parts can still be moving, and it does not mean the entire car will not, or cannot move

Also, stationary push hands is simply training for moving push hands

But why is the fixed point and the rubber band classified differently? Just as the foot is part of the body, is the fixed point not also part of the rubber band? Is it not made of the same atoms?

Let's taking walking for example. When you walk, doesn't one foot need to be stationary on the ground as you move your other foot forward?

 

[windwalker099]

interesting take...
outlines the way I view it

During biped locomotion, rotational equilibrium of the foot is an important criterion for the
evaluation and control of gait and postural stability. For stationary robot, the rotational


equilibrium of the feet is determined by the location of the ground projection of the center-of-
mass (GCM). However, when the robot is in motion, the rotational properties of the foot are
decided by the position of the Foot-Rotation-Indicator (FRI) point [2].

 

[Xue Sheng]

But why is the fixed point and the rubber band classified differently? Just as the foot is part of the body, is the fixed point not also part of the rubber band? Is it not made of the same atoms?

Let's taking walking for example. When you walk, doesn't one foot need to be stationary on the ground as you move your other foot forward?

No it doesn't, you would like it to for your example, but I'm sorry, it doesn't, and applying quantum physics is not helping your argument. If that is the case the there is no fixed point, everything is constantly moving,

Walking also is moving.... and switching from one leg to the other, substantial to insubstantial.

The point is, stationary push hands is a training tool to get you to stepping. You don't enter a BJJ school on day one and find they are going send you to the mat to spar a blue belt. You need basics, that is what stationary push hands it

 

[Xue Sheng]

. This may not be understood by some...

The movement between the feet, which influences the "cg" , rest of the posture and whatever it’s connected with through the contact point.

View attachment 31803



The training of fixed step is one way to train this concept. However, it is not the ultimate goal of the training, as it has often been misconstrued by competitive practitioners, thereby corrupting the original intent of the practice.

"Rooting" can be looked at in different ways. One perspective is that if a person can feel your root, it means they can act on the frame. If they cannot feel it, there is no frame for them to act on.

"I know him, he does not know me"

I am very much agree with that and you are correct, this is not understood by many, even many taijiquan folks. They see competition push hands, which is stationary, and think that is the goal. However from a traditional Taijiquan point of view, competition push hands is not push hands at all, and if it is, it is mostly garbage. I am not saying the folks doing it are not good at it, but it is more stand up wrestling than anything remotely close traditional push hands

 

[QuantumKitty]

No it doesn't, you would like it to for your example, but I'm sorry, it doesn't, and applying quantum physics is not helping your argument. If that is the case the there is no fixed point, everything is constantly moving,

Walking also is moving.... and switching from one leg to the other, substantial to insubstantial.

The point is, stationary push hands is a training tool to get you to stepping. You don't enter a BJJ school on day one and find they are going send you to the mat to spar a blue belt. You need basics, that is what stationary push hands it

"It doesn't" isn't an argument.

The answer with Golden Rooster has been: It doesn't count because it's a transition.

You answer with Ding Bu has been: It doesn't count because of weight shifting - completely ignoring the point regarding the feet.

So I bring up walking since Ding Bu doesn't count. But then you talk about substantial and insubstantial, but that, again, is ignoring my question which is about the foot being stationary as your bring the other foot forward. Nobody is disputing whether walking involves moving. But there is a stationary point - granted you might just excuse that as just a transition.

So if we go back to the spring example where the bottom half is stationary but the top half turns, is the bottom half no longer a spring?

 

[Xue Sheng]

"It doesn't" isn't an argument.

The answer with Golden Rooster has been: It doesn't count because it's a transition.

You answer with Ding Bu has been: It doesn't count because of weight shifting - completely ignoring the point regarding the feet.

So I bring up walking since Ding Bu doesn't count. But then you talk about substantial and insubstantial, but that, again, is ignoring my question which is about the foot being stationary as your bring the other foot forward. Nobody is disputing whether walking involves moving. But there is a stationary point - granted you might just excuse that as just a transition.

So if we go back to the spring example where the bottom half is stationary but the top half turns, is the bottom half no longer a spring?

Sorry you don't like it, but its the truth. I'm not arguing, apparently you are, I'm just stating facts, sorry if they upset you.

And I never denied it was stationary, I said it was not an anchor, as you stated it was. And it is not. and anchor. And your rubber band example is not applicable because it is using 2 distinctly different things and trying to say it is one, when it is not. I am sorry you are upset by this, but it is fact

And you are completely ignoring the fact that it is a training tool to get you to moving push hands.... now what

 

[QuantumKitty]

I'm not arguing, apparently you are.

You make it sound like arguing is a bad thing.

An argument is a conclusion justified by premises. You're right that I have formulated an argument (and largely been asking you questions); I wish you were arguing too because you gave me a conclusion without any premises. Your approach so far is called Denial like what siblings might do: "No, it isn't... Yes it is... No it isn't... Yes is its..."

I repeatedly you why, and I get answers like this:

No it doesn't, you would like it to for your example, but I'm sorry, it doesn't

....

Sorry you don't like it, but its the truth. I'm not arguing, apparently you are, I'm just stating facts, sorry if they upset you.

So my question would be: What is the difference between an anchor and stationary for you? Are you disagreeing because the word "anchor" isn't the right word because the stationary doesn't last long enough? Is it a matter of duration?

 

[Xue Sheng]

You make it sound like arguing is a bad thing.

An argument is a conclusion justified by premises. You're right that I have formulated an argument (and largely been asking you questions); I wish you were arguing too because you gave me a conclusion without any premises. Your approach so far is called Denial like what siblings might do: "No, it isn't... Yes it is... No it isn't... Yes is its..."

I repeatedly you why, and I get answers like this:



So my question would be: What is the difference between an anchor and stationary for you? Are you disagreeing because the word "anchor" isn't the right word because the stationary doesn't last long enough? Is it a matter of duration?

Ahh I see you want an argument you want room twelve A next door.

I am not here to argue, nor do I feel it necessary ot follow your rules as to what is and is not..... sorry, too old, been on MT too long and been training taijiquan even longer to much care about that.

Yes, Anchor is something that is considered immovable.... and no I am not now going to argue stationary verse immovable

And you still have not acknowledged that stationary push hands is only a tool to get you to moving. Your "Argument" has so far been basically a discussion of a picture of a person running by. Yes the picture shows a stationary person, but if you look at it in totality, it is not, it is a frozen moment in time of a moving person.

 

[QuantumKitty]

Ahh I see you want an argument you want room twelve A next door.

I am not here to argue, nor do I feel it necessary ot follow your rules as to what is and is not..... sorry, too old, been on MT too long and been training taijiquan even longer to much care about that.

Yes, Anchor is something that is considered immovable.... and no I am not now going to argue stationary verse immovable

And you still have not acknowledged that stationary push hands is only a tool to get you to moving. Your "Argument" has so far been basically a discussion of a picture of a person running by. Yes the picture shows a stationary person, but if you look at it in totality, it is not, it is a frozen moment in time of a moving person.

Sure, I acknowledge that Stationary Push Hand is a tool to get you to Live Step Push Hands. Granted, I think most people suck at it Stationary Push Hands, and I agree you with you that a lot of the competitive Push Hand folks suck as well.

But you're also mischaracterizing my argument. My original argument is about the relationship between what is moving and what isn't moving. It is not a frozen movement in time because there's an entire segment of time for a foot to travel from Point A to Point B while the other foot stays on the same spot on the ground.

I never argued that the totality is stationary; all of my examples shows something moving while something isn't moving.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Sure, I acknowledge that Stationary Push Hand is a tool to get you to Live Step Push Hands. Granted, I think most people suck at it Stationary Push Hands, and I agree you with you that a lot of the competitive Push Hand folks suck as well.

But you're also mischaracterizing my argument. My original argument is about the relationship between what is moving and what isn't moving. It is not a frozen movement in time because there's an entire segment of time for a foot to travel from Point A to Point B while the other foot stays on the same spot on the ground.

I never argued that the totality is stationary; all of my examples shows something moving while something isn't moving.

Whatever makes you happy… like I said, you want room 12A

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

No it doesn't, you would like it to for your example, but I'm sorry, it doesn't, and applying quantum physics is not helping your argument. If that is the case the there is no fixed point, everything is constantly moving,

Walking also is moving.... and switching from one leg to the other, substantial to insubstantial.

The point is, stationary push hands is a training tool to get you to stepping. You don't enter a BJJ school on day one and find they are going send you to the mat to spar a blue belt. You need basics, that is what stationary push hands it

I don’t want to sidetrack or hijack this discussion. Actually, I had to roll with a blue belt on day one of BJJ and I got smashed and cross faced by him. It was an unpleasant experience. It made me want to see how he would fare against me in a pure striking contest. Now ignore me and continue.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I don’t want to sidetrack or hijack this discussion. Actually, I had to roll with a blue belt on day one of BJJ and I got smashed and cross faced by him. It was an unpleasant experience. It made me want to see how he would fare against me in a pure striking contest. Now ignore me and continue.

No worries, Please derail....
I did push hands with a BJJ brown belt once (also a Modern Wushu, Taiji, Sanda, kyokushin guy) , he eventually threw me on the floor, but I locked him and got him off balance a few times, made him stagger, as he did me..... but in the end I remember him saying...damn that was a good fall....after I fell.... Much like the time I did push hands with my Taiji shifu who used high pat and toppled me over on the floor...he looked down at me and said.... "Tung Hu Ling did that to me once"

see what I did there...brought it back around to push hands

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Ok. In Tai Chi, we train "one part moves, all parts move". The idea that because of push-pull, one part moves and then other parts move later on doesn't sound right to me. Actually I went through this many years ago too. I was moving one part of the body and then moving other parts. I thought I was doing silk reeling but that's not quite it. It is, I believe, a stage you need to pass through before you can get silk reeling.

You can see some delay in the 1st body push/pull arm model video.





Taiji is famous in the waist movement. If you watch this video closely, when he turns his waist, his hand hasn't started to move yet.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

No worries, Please derail....
I did push hands with a BJJ brown belt once (also a Modern Wushu, Taiji, Sanda, kyokushin guy) , he eventually threw me on the floor, but I locked him and got him off balance a few times, made him stagger, as he did me..... but in the end I remember him saying...damn that was a good fall....after I fell.... Much like the time I did push hands with my Taiji shifu who used high pat and toppled me over on the floor...he looked down at me and said.... "Tung Hu Ling did that to me once"

see what I did there...brought it back around to push hands

Excellent!

 

[Appledog]

You can see some delay in the 1st body push/pull arm model video.

(video 1, video 2)

Taiji is famous in the waist movement. If you watch this video closely, when he turns his waist, his hand hasn't started to move yet.

(video 3)

I don't know who those people are. If they are introducing a delay in their movements it is wrong, and it is trivial to demonstrate why. I have a feeling many people do this as a kind of training method, but I feel it is a dangerous compromise.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Taiji is famous in the waist movement. If you watch this video closely, when he turns his waist, his hand hasn't started to move yet.

Maybe it is just me, but I am not liking his silk reeling. Waist, arms and legs yes, but it should be led by the dantian and it does not appear to be the case in that video

 

[windwalker099]

You can see some delay in the 1st body push/pull arm model video.





Taiji is famous in the waist movement. If you watch this video closely, when he turns his waist, his hand hasn't started to move yet.

If the one in the clips, was Lu Baochun 呂寶春, one of his teacher's was Wei ShuRen .

It may have influenced the why and how he moves...

Master Lü Baochun demonstrates Taiji's principle of "bu ding, bu diu" or "don't resist, don't let go" in tuishou training.

Note how he issues from the 'contact' point without needing to close or touch the other's body.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

And in Fixed Step, your feet are still stationary even if you are shifting back and forth.

By using 6H definition that foot coordinate with hand, this is a good example that it violates the 6H theory.

The more you train stationary PH, the less that you train 6H.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

So my question would be: What is the difference between an anchor and stationary for you?

If we look at the big picture, the end of the current move (compress) is the beginning of the next move (release). So, there is no stationary or anchor.