The essence of Tai Chi push hand kung fu

[Kung Fu Wang]

Sure, I acknowledge that Stationary Push Hand is a tool to get you to Live Step Push Hands.

Old saying said, "Even if you may not be able to find any opening to attack, as long as you keep moving (or force your opponent to move), soon or later you will find that opening".

Taiji stationary PH is a bad idea. The more that you train it, the less ability that you will have the ability to deal with "circular dragging".



You move a

- tree, that tree will die.
- human, that human will live long.

This is one of my favor footwork trainings. I can drill this 1000 time non-stop.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Old saying said, "Even if you may not be able to find any opening to attack, as long as you keep moving (or force your opponent to move), soon or later you will find that opening".

Taiji stationary PH is a bad idea. The more that you train it, the less ability that you will have the ability to deal with "circular dragging".

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Well, I'd just follow, not pull back.....nore would I bend my arm and give you something to pull on

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Well, I'd just follow, not pull back.....nore would I bend my arm and give you something to pull on

You can have 3 options there:

1. resist.
2. follow.
3. cut in front of me.

IMO, both 1 and 2 are bad idea because your opponent can borrow your resisting force or yielding force. 3 is the best solution. 3 used to be a secret in Taiwan that my teacher didn't want any Judo guys to learn it. Both Judo guys and Taiji guys in Taiwan hated circular dragging.

 

[windwalker099]

You can have 3 options there:

1. resist.
2. follow.
3. cut in front of me.

IMO, both 1 and 2 are bad idea because your opponent can borrow your resisting force or yielding force. 3 is the best solution. 3 used to be a secret in Taiwan that my teacher didn't want any Judo guys to learn it. Both Judo guys and Taiji guys in Taiwan hated circular dragging.

I don't quite understand why, as it’s part of the movement of Zhuǎnshēn Bānlánchuí (转身搬拦捶). In our practice, it's done using the neck in training. If one manages to neutralize it, the following deflect and punch can be used from the solo practice or any other movement that fits with what is happening.

 

[Appledog]

By using 6H definition that foot coordinate with hand, this is a good example that it violates the 6H theory.

The more you train stationary PH, the less that you train 6H.

Your skill and experience instinctively tells you something is wrong, and yes something is wrong. But I do not buy for one second that taiji PH is a step away from 6H. What I would propose instead is that many people have a twisted understanding of push hands, even at some higher levels people simply did not learn push hands properly. The most common thing is people start doing push hands with other people and pick it up along the way, and didn't get proper teaching. It's unfortunate and will be a difficult problem to solve.

 

[windwalker099]

Your skill and experience instinctively tells you something is wrong, and yes something is wrong. But I do not buy for one second that taiji PH is a step away from 6H. What I would propose instead is that many people have a twisted understanding of push hands, even at some higher levels people simply did not learn push hands properly. The most common thing is people start doing push hands with other people and pick it up along the way, and didn't get proper teaching. It's unfortunate and will be a difficult problem to solve.

So what have you done trying to solve it ?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

But I do not buy for one second that taiji PH is a step away from 6H.

Should a beginner learn

- foot starts to move and hand starts to move. foot stops to move and hand stops to move, or
- hand starts to move and foot is not moving. Hand stops to move and foot is still not moving?

For beginners, is this training better for 6H? It's much easier to coordinate hand with foot this way IMO.

When you train 6H, you just can't only move your hands and freeze your feet.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I don't quite understand why, as it’s part of the movement of Zhuǎnshēn Bānlánchuí (转身搬拦捶). In our practice, it's done using the neck in training. If one manages to neutralize it, the following deflect and punch can be used from the solo practice or any other movement that fits with what is happening.

how about straightening the arm and letting you run away

 

[windwalker099]

how about straightening the arm and letting you run away

Maybe we look at movement a little different

Some "general" methods of training
understanding there is overlap...as needed..

Technique-Based Movement:
Focus: Specific, repetitive movements.
Training: Drills and practice of precise forms and sequences.
Examples: Karate blocks, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu guard passes, Northern Praying Mantis strikes.

Principle-Based Movement:
Focus: Adhering to overarching principles that guide movements.
Training: Emphasis on concepts like balance, flow, blending, and controlling space.
Examples: Tai Chi’s focus on Qi, Aikido’s blending, Wing Chun’s centerline control.

For the most part, my practice is principle-based.
The movements are not practiced for what they can do, but for what they enable one to do within the context of the guiding principles of one’s style. Over time, there is no distinction between it, and oneself.

my practice:
"Empirical based taiji practice theory and usage
Reflecting the teachings of Master Zhang Youngliang,
and other noted masters of taiji."

This may or may not be important depending on ones training focus.
mine is taiji others like KF Wang, for example might have a different focus not caring so much about
style specific principles only what the movements themselves give to his practice.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Ok. In Tai Chi, we train "one part moves, all parts move".

The definition of Taiji silk reeling is you use body to push/pull arm/leg. It makes sense when you apply circular moves such as:

- roundhouse kick,
- spin hook kick,
- hook punch,
- spin back fist,
- ...

that you use body rotation to push/pull your arm/leg. It's a good power generation method. The CON is there is always a delay between your body move to your limb move.

Does it make sense to use silk reeling in defense such as to block/deflect an incoming punch? IMO, that can be too slow.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I don't quite understand why, as it’s part of the movement of Zhuǎnshēn Bānlánchuí (转身搬拦捶). In our practice, it's done using the neck in training. If one manages to neutralize it, the following deflect and punch can be used from the solo practice or any other movement that fits with what is happening.

How do you use Zhuǎnshēn Bānlánchuí (转身搬拦捶) to counter circular dragging?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

how about straightening the arm and letting you run away

Your opponent may grab/pull the skin of your upper inside arm. Old Chinese wrestling saying said, "有衣抓衣无衣抓皮 - Grab shirt if he has, otherwise grab his skin".

 

[windwalker099]

How do you use Zhuǎnshēn Bānlánchuí (转身搬拦捶) to counter circular dragging?

Some misunderstanding, the movement is similar if not the same as the circular dragging,
Perhaps my practice is a little different from what the standard practice is.

Both Judo guys and Taiji guys in Taiwan hated circular dragging.

Why would the taiji guys hate something presumably, in their practice ?

I don't think in terms of counters, however the the follow on movements, continuing with the initial movement cut the circle.

how we play the form

practice

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Why would the taiji guys hate something presumably, in their practice ?

Because when you drag your opponent's arm and move in circle, you force your opponent to put weight on his leading leg so he can't kick you. Also, your opponent's back arm cannot reach you. Since you have controlled his leading arm, you have put him into defense mode. Nobody like to be put into defense mode.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I don't know who those people are. If they are introducing a delay in their movements it is wrong, and it is trivial to demonstrate why. I have a feeling many people do this as a kind of training method, but I feel it is a dangerous compromise.

- Body push/pull limbs are for power.
- Body chase limbs are for speed.

If you use it in the wrong place, you will get in trouble.

When you try to smash a mosquito in front of you, your hands will go first. Your body then follows. When you start to move your hands, your body hasn't move yet.

 

[Same Trick]

I don't know who those people are. If they are introducing a delay in their movements it is wrong, and it is trivial to demonstrate why. I have a feeling many people do this as a kind of training method, but I feel it is a dangerous compromise.

Push and pull for certain is present in taiji form practice…if practiced correctly.
Goal to be omnipresent six-directional push/pull.

Other methods such as XYQ also have this method but may be more pronounced in the front/back pull and push.

In the method of push/pull that I’m working with, in martial art sense it’s directly ties to - “start second arrive first”, it’s a tool of sharpening listening and timing skill. in a cultivation sense it’s centering .

 

[Appledog]

The definition of Taiji silk reeling is you use body to push/pull arm/leg. It makes sense when you apply circular moves such as:

That definition would be incorrect. Silk reeling is not using the body to push or pull the arm or leg. If that was true then the strength in the body and the strength in the arm would be different. Silk reeling is more about unifying the strength in the body with the strength in the arm. Of course it's more complex than that but that is one of the basic ideas.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Silk reeling is more about unifying the strength in the body with the strength in the arm.

The definition of silk reeling is your power generate come from body parts rotation (such as body push arm).

When you generate power, do you compress first before you release? Do you let your leg to borrow the counter force from the ground (compress}, your power then going through your leg, hip, body, shoulder, arm, and finally reach to your fist (release). From the moment that your start to bend your leg until your fist punch out, is there any delay in between?

 

[Appledog]

The definition of silk reeling is your power generate come from body parts rotation (such as body push arm).

mainly. That would be one of the "more complex" parts.

When you generate power, do you compress first before you release? Do you let your leg to borrow the counter force from the ground (compress}, your power then going through your leg, hip, body, shoulder, arm, and finally reach to your fist (release). From the moment that your start to bend your leg until your fist punch out, is there any delay in between?

I wasn't able to identify the second clip but it looks like similar clothing to his bajiquan dvd (ref:

). However, if you look at Adam Hsu's Taijiquan DVD instead, at 2:02, you can see quite a different driving force behind his punch:

I would also submit a clip of Ma Hong just for comparison.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Your opponent may grab/pull the skin of your upper inside arm. Old Chinese wrestling saying said, "有衣抓衣无衣抓皮 - Grab shirt if he has, otherwise grab his skin".

However that is not the video you provided. If the above was done that would mean a different response