The essence of Tai Chi push hand kung fu

[windwalker099]

In the many parks, local meeting places push hands is practiced..in Beijing

The audio seems to be bad...recommend muting it
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Note the leg skill some claim to never see being used.

In China, and Taiwan, what is shown is pretty much common for the practice.

For those who claim this is not push hands or taiji skill sets, ect.
the best way to show this is to meet up with the locals and demo
your skill..

A good way to test one's own skill ..among what may be considered as taiji
peers...

The commentator mentions push hands has become the default for taiji combat. If so, a sad commentary for taiji as a combat method

IMO not a good practice method for those wanting to learn
Taiji skill sets that can be used outside of push hands contexts.

 

[windwalker099]

what happens when push hands is used outside of a training device.

The man in red, a teacher, was demonstrating push hands. As often happens, someone from the crowd asked if they could try.

In this case, the man in the black coat gave it a go, and you can see the results.

Push hands has become the default method for what some consider Taiji sparring. Among certain teachers, when they lose, they may claim the other person doesn’t understand push hands; when they win, they might say it exemplifies how push hands works.

IMO a risky outlook should one expect to use taiji as a martial art.

Nevertheless, push hands has become the common way for Taiji skill sets to be tested within the Taiji community.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

what happens when push hands is used outside of a training device.

The man in red, a teacher, was demonstrating push hands. As often happens, someone from the crowd asked if they could try.

In this case, the man in the black coat gave it a go, and you can see the results.

Push hands has become the default method for what some consider Taiji sparring. Among certain teachers, when they lose, they may claim the other person doesn’t understand push hands; when they win, they might say it exemplifies how push hands works.

IMO a risky outlook should one expect to use taiji as a martial art.

Nevertheless, push hands has become the common way for Taiji skill sets to be tested within the Taiji community.

Nothing wrong with push hands per se. This contributes to the myth that tai chi is not a martial art. Playing in public attracts attention. Public players should not be surprised when people want to try. No one should be surprised to find out that an exercise is not a contest. “Can you do it while I hit you?” That doesn’t apply to an exercise, but that’s how most people will view it. Outside of the form and the teaching, it’s out of context. It is important, but it’s just an exercise. Someone who does the form correctly with good instruction may not gain much benefit from push hands. The fighting sets are a better test because the feet move. The opportunity is the same. Losing balance or root is gentle compared to a missed block in the fighting sets.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Nothing wrong with push hands per se. This contributes to the myth that tai chi is not a martial art. Playing in public attracts attention. Public players should not be surprised when people want to try. No one should be surprised to find out that an exercise is not a contest. “Can you do it while I hit you?” That doesn’t apply to an exercise, but that’s how most people will view it. Outside of the form and the teaching, it’s out of context. It is important, but it’s just an exercise. Someone who does the form correctly with good instruction may not gain much benefit from push hands. The fighting sets are a better test because the feet move. The opportunity is the same. Losing balance or root is gentle compared to a missed block in the fighting sets.

agree, except for one thing, push hands is trained with some foot work, at least in my lineage.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

agree, except for one thing, push hands is trained with some foot work, at least in my lineage.

I’m sure that it has gourmet practitioners. No doubt. They/you/your lineage are likely a few of those. I’m mostly speaking to the public display in the park style. “ please come ask me about my mystical practices”.

agree, except for one thing, push hands is trained with some foot work, at least in my lineage.

Dont get me wrong. I believe in it. It’s just that the number of half *** bull shido ists far outnumber legitimately skilled people.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

No one should be surprised to find out that an exercise is not a contest.

Some people do think Taiji puh hand is contest.

One day a stranger and his girlfriend knocked on my front door and challenged me Taiji push hand in my living room. I told him that I could spar/wrestle with him, but I don't do push hand. He said he had bad knee and could not spar/wrestle. We ended up just talking.

Later on, I heard he went to every MA school in town and challenged instructors for push hand.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Some people do think Taiji puh hand is contest.

One day a stranger and his girlfriend knocked on my front door and challenged me Taiji push hand in my living room. I told him that I could spar/wrestle with him, but I don't do push hand. He said he had bad knee and could not spar/wrestle. We ended up just talking.

Later on, I heard he went to every MA school in town and challenged instructors for push hand.

One day a Tai chi teacher came in and challenged my Sifu to push hands. My Sifu said ok, but first we fight for 1 minute, then we can push hands as long as you want. You guess what happened. So many of these guys are just BS, but I respect the real thing very much.

 

[windwalker099]

Some people do think Taiji puh hand is contest.

Not just some “people”

Push hands (推手, tui shou) became a formal competition event around the 1970s.

In doing so, many of the combative aspects of Taiji seem to have been lost. The recognition of Taiji skill within the community often isn't based on practical application but rather on the skill sets tested in push hands—a method originally designed to develop skill but now, for some, has become the end goal itself.

Training for competition has strayed from the original intent, which was to develop certain skills essential for using Taiji as a combative system.

That said, it remains a standard within the Taiji community. To gain respect, one must still possess the skills that push hands was meant to develop to demonstrate or share something beyond the competitive aspects with those who focus on them

Still, it serves as a valuable testing ground outside the competitive scene for those interested in developing their practice with new people within a familiar context.

Also a good way to connect with others and make friends.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I’m sure that it has gourmet practitioners. No doubt. They/you/your lineage are likely a few of those. I’m mostly speaking to the public display in the park style. “ please come ask me about my mystical practices”.

Dont get me wrong. I believe in it. It’s just that the number of half *** bull shido ists far outnumber legitimately skilled people.

Well, it isn't mystical, it isn't magic, and it is not fighting. It is a tool training you can apply to fighting and it is simply that.....training

And based on experience, if you pushed my shifu like that guy was pushing, he would back up fast, as many times as he needed to take you off balance

 

[windwalker099]

Well, it isn't mystical, it isn't magic, and it is not fighting. It is a tool training you can apply to fighting and it is simply that.....training

And based on experience, if you pushed my shifu like that guy was pushing, he would back up fast, as many times as he needed to take you off balance

The guy had to back up because he did not understand how to Zhan, Lian, Nian, Sui.

Julian Chu explains that in order to gain the Tai Chi capabilities of Sensing, Leading, Neutralizing, Controlling, and Discharging one must first learn how to Zhan, Lian, Nian, Sui. Julian Chu is a senior student of Benjamin Lo.

He talks about leading into "emptiness"

The demos in most cases use very big movement, allowing the student to feel it.
In usage, it's very small movement....just a touch....
They have no time to recover, or adjust depending on level of skill..

It happens before touch....something not always understood...
just watching if one has not experienced it before .

 

[Xue Sheng]

The guy had to back up because he did not understand how to Zhan, Lian, Nian, Sui.

He talks about leading into "emptiness"

The demos in most cases use very big movement, allowing the student to feel it.
In usage, it's very small movement....just a touch....
They have no time to recover, or adjust depending on level of skill..

It happens before touch....something not always understood...
just watching if one has not experienced it before .

My shifu backs up to lead you into emptiness..... if that is what the force coming in requires.

 

[windwalker099]

My shifu backs up to lead you into emptiness..... if that is what the force coming in requires.

The comment was made about this clip..

It's very common in China and Taiwan, people trying to directly
push the other person out.

This is what happens with those who know how know how to use
"Zhan, Lian, Nian, Sui". Leading, Neutralizing, Controlling, and Discharging

don't need to back up...sticking and releasing

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

don't need to back up...sticking and releasing

Some under hook and over hook training is missing in Taiji PH.

 

[windwalker099]

Some under hook and over hook training is missing in Taiji PH.

To say what is missing, one should first be proficient in the way others do it.
Then one can introduce their own way, helping others find their way.

Different teachers use different methods according to their way.

For Taiji in general, I feel it’s a losing battle if one wants to change things.

In Taiwan, when meeting others, they understood what they practiced may not accord with what some might consider Taiji.
It wasn’t really a concern when preparing for competitions.

They did respect others who used what was considered traditional Taiji methods, able to make it work in the competitive context they practice in.

Very serious in their practices, very sincere in their efforts.

Good people, working hard, enjoying their practice....
willing and open to share it with others.

Before saying what they do not have, one might want to join them,
finding out what they do have...

 

[windwalker099]

single whip "单鞭" (dān biān)
hook to the head

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Before saying what they do not have, one might want to join them,
finding out what they do have...

Taiji PH is arms deal with arms. I assume besides kick and punch, everything is allowed.

I'm not talking about a Taiji guy fights against another Taiji guy. I'm talking about how a Taiji guy can fight against a non-Taiji guy. A Taiji guy may not use under hook or over hook. But a Taiji guy cannot prevent others using it. It's reasonable for a Taiji guy to be able to deal with under hook and over hook. My concern is, if you don't train how to deal with it, where can you develop your experience?

 

[Xue Sheng]

single whip "单鞭" (dān biān)
hook to the head

1) I am not a fan of Adam Mizner

2) There are other applications to single whip

 

[Xue Sheng]

I'm not talking about a Taiji guy fights against another Taiji guy. I'm talking about how a Taiji guy can fight against a non-Taiji guy. A Taiji guy may not use under hook or over hook. But a Taiji guy cannot prevent others using it. It's reasonable for a Taiji guy to be able to deal with under hook and over hook. My concern is, if you don't train how to deal with it, where can you develop your experience?

Actually, yes, yes they can deal with an under hook or an over hook. also there are hooks and an uppercut to the solar plexus in the traditional Yang form

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Before saying what they do not have, one might want to join them,
finding out what they do have...

I just want to know how a Taiji guy be able to deal with under hook or over hook.

 

[windwalker099]

My concern is, if you don't train how to deal with it, where can you develop your experience?

ok.

I'm not.

Posted my views on PH, understanding the practice for many.

It's not my thing, except that in the circles I move in, one has to have the same skill sets to gain the respect of others before they pay any attention to what is said.

If one can do what some of the teachers show, they might find their answers there.
As for experience, everyone is responsible for their own, in accordance with their focus and interest.