The essence of Tai Chi push hand kung fu

[windwalker099]

The Tai Chi locals, you mean.


This is noble,


but this is offensive.

If Master Yap pretended to know Tai Chi too, I'd yell at him too.

Master Yap?

Maybe my writing wasn't clear. When I say "it's not my thing," I'm referring to the competitive aspects of push hands practice.
Don't see much point to it, but do understand the practice...

There are those who focus for competition, and those who focus more on skill sets.
IME the practice's are not the same.
As a general part of the practice, in learning taiji skill sets,
depending on approach it's invaluable.

With those that practice for competitions.
they'er a good test for anyone wanting to check their skill sets against people who do compete,
without having to train for competitions.

There is no "pretending" anything. they will let you know either way whether one has skill, or not.
Some of the groups I visited, they will try to match people with equal or greater skill...

In China, a little different....

Once in Tianjin

A young guy, Chen stylist, he had a little trouble in our interaction.
An older woman stepped in,,,and promptly threw me out.
My Chinese is not so good.

Was told the Conversation between them.
"no, no, not like that" "like this"

would later find out the woman was his "mom"

way to go mom

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

What's the Taiji "single whip" usage?

I think this question has some logic issue. Has anybody ever asked,

- "What's the hook punch usage?"
- "What's the front kick usage?"
- "What's the hip throw usage?"
- ...

If you intentional define an abstract term, you then ask yourself "What's the meaning of that?" Why did you do that (define an abstract term) in the first place?

 

[Same Trick]

My Sigung went to train with YCF. He said YCF was fat and just pushed his students around. He was not impressed. YCF changed some things with the form that man6 people did not appreciate as improvement.

Yes, there has been a lot of YCF bashing ……after his passing, and it’s getting stronger the longer he’s been dead.

Yes, YCF did some changes, one of the most silly claim of his change that supposedly made TJQ “ineffective” is that he took away the jumping and stomping in the form, as if jumping and stomping make anything really martial
I’d say YCF took away the theatrical and kept the moves that fit easily with the essential oral instruction that put life in a true martial sense into the exercise, however he seem to have been restrictive on transmitting parts of the oral teachings, keeping that for those being on the inside.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Yes, there has been a lot of YCF bashing ……after his passing, and it’s getting stronger the longer he’s been dead.

The bashing started when YCF was still alive.

One day my teacher and Li Jing-Lin walked in the Shanghai Park. YCF was teaching his class in the park. Li said to my teacher, "Look! YCF is cheating on his students again."

 

[Same Trick]

The bashing started when YCF was still alive.

One day my teacher and Li Jing-Lin walked in the Shanghai Park. YCF was teaching his class in the park. Li said to my teacher, "Look! YCF is cheating on his students again."

Well that’s not bashing on YCF skill, just about him not teaching openly what he taught in house, understandable , onlookers may otherwise just steal and go on teaching it.

 

[Same Trick]

The bashing started when YCF was still alive.

One day my teacher and Li Jing-Lin walked in the Shanghai Park. YCF was teaching his class in the park. Li said to my teacher, "Look! YCF is cheating on his students again."

It would be interesting to know what Li Jinglin thought(behind YCF’s back) YCF was cheating his students on.

Li Jinglin was a TJQ student of Yang Jianhou Yang Chengfu’s father, Li was well known as a sword(fencing) “wizard” in China , he was the founder of the famous ‘Central martial arts academy’ in Nanjing to where he invited famous teachers, one of the invited teachers was YCF, while at the martial arts academy for whatever reason there was set for a public fencing bout between Li Jinglin and YCF a bout in which Li was easily defeated.

Maybe Li felt humiliated by his defeat and came to hold a grudge against YCF ?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

It would be interesting to know what Li Jinglin thought(behind YCF’s back) YCF was cheating his students on.

I didn't ask my teacher about the detail.

My teacher told me that he knew the true reason of YCF's death. Li Jing-Lin won't allow YCF to teach in public. YCF died by depression.

In "Central martial arts academy", GM Han Ching-Tan wanted to challenge YCF. Han was stopped by Zhang Zhijiang (张之江).

 

[Same Trick]

I didn't ask my teacher about the detail.

My teacher told me that he knew the true reason of YCF's death. Li Jing-Lin won't allow YCF to teach in public. YCF died by depression.

that do t make sense as to what you describe in previous post about what Li Jinglin supposedly had said about YCF .

 

[Same Trick]

I didn't ask my teacher about the detail.

My teacher told me that he knew the true reason of YCF's death. Li Jing-Lin won't allow YCF to teach in public. YCF died by depression.

In "Central martial arts academy", GM Han Ching-Tan wanted to challenge YCF. Han was stopped by Zhang Zhijiang (张之江).

As I wrote previously, Li Jinglin learned TJQ from YCF’s father Yang Jianghou.

It is known that YCfF didn’t take to seriously into TJQ practice while his father was alive, it wasn’t until his fathers passing YCF felt he had to take it seriously and uphold family tradition. This may be another reason why ppl like Li Jinglin may have felt some kind of seniority over YCF. Of course Li was also a famous warlord/general also associated with Chiang Kaishek and the mobsters of Shanghai .

Yes sure YCF might have felt a lot of pressure from those groupings in Shanghai, but yet he taught there as he wanted to.

 

[Appledog]

I didn't ask my teacher about the detail.

My teacher told me that he knew the true reason of YCF's death. Li Jing-Lin won't allow YCF to teach in public. YCF died by depression.

In "Central martial arts academy", GM Han Ching-Tan wanted to challenge YCF. Han was stopped by Zhang Zhijiang (张之江).

Oh, I heard that it was Wang Ziping who stopped him. As I recall, you were the one who told me this. Was it Wang or Zhang?

 

[Xue Sheng]

I didn't ask my teacher about the detail.

My teacher told me that he knew the true reason of YCF's death. Li Jing-Lin won't allow YCF to teach in public. YCF died by depression.

In "Central martial arts academy", GM Han Ching-Tan wanted to challenge YCF. Han was stopped by Zhang Zhijiang (张之江).

not what I was told.....

I cannot say this is fact anymore than you can, but per my shifu, Yang Chengfu died because he was so large, ate horribly, and did not believe he needed a doctor, because he believed Taijiquan was all he needed to stay healthy..... my teacher's teacher was a serious student of Yang Chengfu, so I tend to believe this one a bit more than the whole depression thing

 

[windwalker099]

lost the link...

some might find it interesting.

Taijiquan Master Yang Chengfu's "Mysterious" Training Technique
Author: Li Tongguo

Tall, burly Yang Chengfu, in his thirties

Yang Chengfu in Guangzhou when the boxing, left for Fu Zhongwen, right for the Fu zhensong. In 1928, Fu Zhensong served as the head of the Wudang Gate of Central National Art Museum.


The article, outlines training techniques, including paying sparring partners to train with, and the use of weights of the time to develop power.

excerpts from the article

2. yes Pass (or call feed, break, etc.) Focusing on the skillful application of martial arts techniques, various modern confrontation events are still widely used.

"I ordered the two people in the team to be the best at practicing this skill, Tian Zhaolin and You Zhixue, to make stakes for Yu Di, and you will always point out his mistakes." [4]Tian Zhaolin and You Zhixue handed hands to Xu Yusheng to make piles. However, it should be pointed out that the routines of China martial arts are highly mature, and the "hands-on" training method has become alienated in the process of dissemination to the public.

"The 'feeding move','receiving move' and 'breaking move' between two people require that the movements of this boxing type must be used and the style of this genre must be maintained." In this way,"the purpose of (martial arts sanshou) practice is to express movements rather than measure a person's fighting ability."

Interesting insight, one which was questioned in the 70s by those observing CMA fighters did not often use what they trained in. Their purpose to "win" the match as "fighters".

[5] This serious problem was discovered in 1979 during a large-scale confrontation experiment conducted by the country to restore martial arts skills. The time when alienation occurred was most likely due to the great development of folk martial arts after 1900, and a large number of martial artists entered cities to make a living in order to distinguish between sects.

The so-called sects were actually created by martial arts novels during the Republic of China. People believed it seriously and did not exist in ancient times. This will be discussed in another article.

3. Specific sparring that imitates a certain style of play . This is a more commonly used training method in today's professional athletes, mainly to deal with opponents who are good at certain techniques. In the Qing Dynasty, due to the lack of professional ring competition martial artist martial arts training is usually not specifically aimed at a certain person, this method is less used.

4. Real sparring sparring . This is not much to say, anyone who wants to have real confrontation ability, must go through this training.

There is no conclusive and detailed information to confirm that Master Yang Chengfu's specific training method in the "living pile" training is something that others really do not show to the outside world. Judging from today's training methods, except for the third method, which is not used much, all other methods may be used in "live pile" training.

Folk martial artists usually believe that the use of moves is something that ancient masters cannot pass on to them. Such thoughts also existed among literati during the Republic of China, including Yang Chengfu's disciples Chen Weiming and Zheng Manqing. In fact, the training method is. Even if a person knows the use of moves, he cannot use them flexibly in combat practice. The training methods and methods will transform the use of moves into real personal abilities.

 

[Same Trick]

I didn't ask my teacher about the detail.

My teacher told me that he knew the true reason of YCF's death. Li Jing-Lin won't allow YCF to teach in public. YCF died by depression.

In "Central martial arts academy", GM Han Ching-Tan wanted to challenge YCF. Han was stopped by Zhang Zhijiang (张之江).

Li Jinglin 1885-1931
Yang Chengfu 1883-1936

What caused the early passing of Li ?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Oh, I heard that it was Wang Ziping who stopped him. As I recall, you were the one who told me this. Was it Wang or Zhang?

Zhang Zhijiang (张之江) was the head of the Nanking Central MA Institute. I have never mentioned Wang Ziping.

I did mention Wang Ziping was the judge of my teacher's tournament (top picture judge).

 

[windwalker099]

What happens when people enter into specialized events outside of their skill sets, believing that their current expertise is similar enough to give them an advantage.

Did we finally find someone who understands Tai Chi? Here's Sifu Nico Alsup of 5 Elements Fitness in a fixed step Tai Chi push hands tournament. I picked these two matches because they show the difference in movement between a Tai Chi trained person and a standard MMA trained person.

It is really cool watching how Nicholas Alsup moves in this push hands context! The first match was against Lainel Briones, a former MMA fighter and current brown belt in Jiu Jitsu.

The second match was against Jason Bukich, a former MMA fighter and black belt in Jiu Jitsu. Yes, the footpads do have issues, and it's something I've told Jan and Jason about, so in the future if there are any more of these tournaments, that issue will hopefully be fixed (along with the use of raised footpads). Also, sometimes Sifu Nico goes by Sifu Niko, so you guys might find more videos of him by that name.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Yes, there has been a lot of YCF bashing ……after his passing, and it’s getting stronger the longer he’s been dead.

Yes, YCF did some changes, one of the most silly claim of his change that supposedly made TJQ “ineffective” is that he took away the jumping and stomping in the form, as if jumping and stomping make anything really martial
I’d say YCF took away the theatrical and kept the moves that fit easily with the essential oral instruction that put life in a true martial sense into the exercise, however he seem to have been restrictive on transmitting parts of the oral teachings, keeping that for those being on the inside.

Well you weren’t alive and didn’t train with YCF. My Sigung was and did. I don’t know either because I’m only 53. I can tell you my Sifu would just ask if “you can do it while I hit you.” That was his measure of Tai Chi Chuan skills.

 

[Appledog]

Folk martial artists usually believe that the use of moves is something that ancient masters cannot pass on to them. Such thoughts also existed among literati during the Republic of China, including Yang Chengfu's disciples Chen Weiming and Zheng Manqing. In fact, the training method is. Even if a person knows the use of moves, he cannot use them flexibly in combat practice. The training methods and methods will transform the use of moves into real personal abilities.

What is the training method for single whip? What is the training method for snake creeps down (Oh, just as an example ) If you don't know the training method, how can you really know the application? This is why people say there are 1000 applications in tai chi. Ok, sure, but which ones are the bread and butter?

As the story goes, Yang would pose in 'single whip' after defeating an opponent. It would send the crowds wild.

 

[Same Trick]

Well you weren’t alive and didn’t train with YCF. My Sigung was and did. I don’t know either because I’m only 53. I can tell you my Sifu would just ask if “you can do it while I hit you.” That was his measure of Tai Chi Chuan skills.

Ok ? going down that ”my teacher” road, then my teacher is a student of Fu Zhongwen and also studied with Fu Zongyuan both students of Yang Chengfu.
Both Fu brothers had genuine skill and had no trouble teaching in public, if some didn’t like them they seem to have spoken their dislike not facing them

 

[Same Trick]

As the story goes, Yang would pose in 'single whip' after defeating an opponent. It would send the crowds wild.

which of the Yang’s was that, where can one read that story ?

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Ok ? going down that ”my teacher” road, then my teacher is a student of Fu Zhongwen and also studied with Fu Zongyuan both students of Yang Chengfu.
Both Fu brothers had genuine skill and had no trouble teaching in public, if some didn’t like them they seem to have spoken their dislike not facing them

Sure, I’m certain they were the terrors of the city park.