The effectiveness of Tae Kwon Do in self defense...

[MJS]

I think the striking arts have an advantage over grappling for the simple reason that while you are upright you have more options. Not that Tae Kwon Do or the other styles are inherently better, but I think that when you go to the ground, especially on purpose, you limit what you can do.
Upright, you have much better control over your response to a situation. You can block, attack, evade, or run. You can do these against one or several opponents. On the ground, it is simply much harder to pull these off successfully. Not to say an experienced grappler doesn't have options, but I think your options decrease when you are no longer upright.

Another misconception of BJJ. As Ive said before..there are techs that can be applied standing as well as on the ground. It makes me laugh, because every time someone hears the word BJJ they automatically think the ground...not the case at all. Many BJJ fighters punch as well as kick.

Mike

 

[Littledragon]

First off, in a crowded bar, I really dont think that much kicking will be done at all. As for the mult attackers....again, with the typical comeback. A mult attacker situation is going to involve them coming at you at the same time, not one at a time. What makes TKD so effective here?? There are many other stand up arts that cover the same thing.

Mike

For multi attackers I think Aikido is a great martial art for that situation.

 

[MichiganTKD]

I never said Tae Kwon Do was THE martial art for self defense in a crowded area. I said stand up styles offer certain advantages over grappling styles. Kenpo, Karate, and Kung Fu are just as likely to be effective as well.
While using an attacker as a human shield against other attackers is theoretically possible, what's to stop him from pulling out a knife or gun at that close range and using it on you. Same with grappling with someone on the ground. If you're belly to belly on the floor, it would not be difficult for them to pull a knife or gun (assuming they have one) and sticking or shooting you at that close range. The stand up styles at least offer mobility to evade and run if necessary. I didn't say they were foolproof, but they have advantages.
As far as multi attackers, traditional Tae Kwon Do was designed for situations like that, using footwork, mobility, and powerful and fast combinations. As I read somewhere, humans have two arms, two legs, and a head. So theoretically it is possible to defend against five people at once. Key word being theoretical.

 

[MJS]

While using an attacker as a human shield against other attackers is theoretically possible, what's to stop him from pulling out a knife or gun at that close range and using it on you. Same with grappling with someone on the ground. If you're belly to belly on the floor, it would not be difficult for them to pull a knife or gun (assuming they have one) and sticking or shooting you at that close range.

I guess thats why it pays to be aware of whats going on. If you think about it, we could 'what if' this to death.

Mike

 

[Marginal]

Not true! Its the tech. that matters.

If it was, there woudln't be weight divisions.

Again, its more of a sport event, just like wrestling.

If weight does not matter in grappling, why are there weight classes in wrestling? Purely for the entertainment value of seeing how to make men develop eating disorders?

A flyweight's going to be considered at a massive disadvantage vs a heavyweight in boxing. Why is that? Special anti small man rules in boxing? Couldn't be that they're not as strong, have less reach, and can't absorb as much punishment...

Example-Keith Hackney fought that Sumo guy in UFC 3 I believe. That guy was taller and heavier, and what happened???

A fat man fell down, and then that fat man found he was so fat he couldn't try to stand up and avoid being punched at the same time. Morbidly obese people who study "Judu" and "Sumu" apparently aren't good fighters.

You're making it sound like if you're ever facing someone bigger, then you're basically going to be screwed! In the long run, its going to come down to tech. and timing.

In the long run, weight classes emerged. Because the bigger fighter has an advantage. (Unless they're really fat and slow, but I accounted for that in my last post when I said grappling with a bigger opponent's not necessarially needed if they're slow.) Varlens vs Ruas proved that.

It's funny that you point out that BJJ fighters can also punch and kick. (Mainly because they had to start studying MT because strikers weren't quite as easy to dismiss as the Gracie's/GJJ fanboys initially claimed.) I could also point out that TKD people can also punch, throw elbows or grapple standing up depending on thier training's focus, but since "TKD IS KICK" is apparently an immutable fact, I simply give up. Only BJJ practitioners have the option of not being monodimensional...

 

[Shu2jack]

I could also point out that TKD people can also punch, throw elbows or grapple standing up depending on thier training's focus...

Thank you!

 

[Littledragon]

I believe a practicioner training under the traditional style of TKD is very effective on the street because it emphasizes primarly on self defense, but a school just emphasizing on sport TKD, there is no way they will know how to defend themselves sucesfully. They are training every day to score a point, they don't know how to train for saving their life on the street.

 

[MJS]

If it was, there woudln't be weight divisions.



If weight does not matter in grappling, why are there weight classes in wrestling? Purely for the entertainment value of seeing how to make men develop eating disorders?

A flyweight's going to be considered at a massive disadvantage vs a heavyweight in boxing. Why is that? Special anti small man rules in boxing? Couldn't be that they're not as strong, have less reach, and can't absorb as much punishment...



A fat man fell down, and then that fat man found he was so fat he couldn't try to stand up and avoid being punched at the same time. Morbidly obese people who study "Judu" and "Sumu" apparently aren't good fighters.



In the long run, weight classes emerged. Because the bigger fighter has an advantage. (Unless they're really fat and slow, but I accounted for that in my last post when I said grappling with a bigger opponent's not necessarially needed if they're slow.) Varlens vs Ruas proved that.

It's funny that you point out that BJJ fighters can also punch and kick. (Mainly because they had to start studying MT because strikers weren't quite as easy to dismiss as the Gracie's/GJJ fanboys initially claimed.) I could also point out that TKD people can also punch, throw elbows or grapple standing up depending on thier training's focus, but since "TKD IS KICK" is apparently an immutable fact, I simply give up. Only BJJ practitioners have the option of not being monodimensional...

Again, I refer back to a few things that I've said in past posts. In the first few UFC events, there were no weight classes. When it was yanked from PPV by the politicians, the only way it could come back is with the new rules. IE- weight classes and a more inclusive list of things that you cant do.

As for the BJJ guys crosstraining in MT....in you look again at the first few, you'll notice that Royce did not throw half of the punches or kicks that you see the BJJ guys throwing today, so that IMO, blows your theory out of the water! Sure, they're doing them today...just like the strikers are learning to grapple!!!!!! So your point is????????????????

I was recently on Bullshido...I came across a section of clips of fights. One that stuck in my mind was a Muay Thai fighter vs. a TKD fighter. The TKD guy was getting pounded. Check it out. It also amazed me as how the TKD guys hands never got above his waist. Pretty much, his hands were at his sides, while he hopped around. Now, I'm not saying that is how ALL TKD fighters fight, but that certainly paints a negative picture of TKD.

You seem to be fixated with this weight thing. Let me ask you, have you ever done any grappling before?? Every grappling instructor that I've talked to has always talked about the tech. being the most important factor here. You can know 1000 submissions, but if you dont know the positions and how to hold them, then what good are the 1000 submissions?? Part of keeping those positions, is having good tech. in the game of grappling, especially when you have two guys with equal skill, its like a chess game. They have to out-think each other. The bottom line...the one with the better tech. will come out on top. Helio Gracie is a small man. He learned the techs. from someone who was of a different body size than him. He had to modify the techs. to fit HIM. That is why GJJ is so effective. Due to his small size, he needed to make sure that the tech. that he was doing was perfect.

If you want to continue this discussion, thats fine. If not, thats fine too. IMO, you seem to be getting a little upset because I'm not agreeing with you. Dude, this is a forum. Its hard at times to put what you're thinking on the screen and at the same time, making sure that the other guy is understanding you. I'd be more than happy to continue the chat, but lets try to keep it civil, ok? If you want to take it offline, please feel free to PM or email me.

Mike

 

[MJS]

On a side note. Since this is a TKD thread, and I'm not a TKD stylist, maybe someone could enlighten me as to the difference between the sport and the traditional style differences? Maybe if the differences were brought to light, then the less educated would understand just a little bit better.

Mike

 

[Littledragon]

On a side note. Since this is a TKD thread, and I'm not a TKD stylist, maybe someone could enlighten me as to the difference between the sport and the traditional style differences? Maybe if the differences were brought to light, then the less educated would understand just a little bit better.

Mike

In general traditional TKD focuses on self-defense ans sport TKD focuses nothing but sport and competition.

 

[MichiganTKD]

Traditional Tae Kwon Do sees itself as a program for total physical, mental, spiritual, and social well being. Self defense is only part of it. In short, it is a Way of Life. Sport Tae Kwon Do is designed to win points and tournaments. As a result, its techniques have been adapted and steamlined to make this possible.

 

[Littledragon]

Traditional Tae Kwon Do sees itself as a program for total physical, mental, spiritual, and social well being. Self defense is only part of it. In short, it is a Way of Life. Sport Tae Kwon Do is designed to win points and tournaments. As a result, its techniques have been adapted and steamlined to make this possible.

Very well said I completly agree.

 

[Kevin Walker]

Man, this issue have been discussed so much that it's getting boring but I decided to join in the fun anyway.
Firstly ask yourself why the situation grows to a fight? In reality really, are there always idiots who try to pick a fight in a bar? If so what are u doin there? Are you aggravating the situation?
Nowadays there are hardly one-on-one fights. If you're try to control someone on the ground don't forget about the 3 other friends who'd like to treat you with a beer bottle to the back of your head! Conclusion.. don't go to a bar(at least the ones with bad asses) LOL.

In the street it's the same, why would anyone pick a fight with you? I belif if u suddenly harass someone on the street(male preferably) 90% will run away(martial arts or not) thinking you are some nut. Ever seen a dog suddenly chase a pedestrian?

In fact there's a report in the news not so long ago that Richard Simmons ***** slapped an experienced MMA fighter who bad mouthed him. So how effective is MMA ?

All in all , martial arts or not, use your head often. Martial arts is just a bonus.

Hi,

People go to bars for the same reasons they go to concerts or hockey games, because they like it! And if a fight breaks out at any of those locations, your preferred style of martial art will make the difference between and effective defense or a clumsy defense. And yes, General Choi did modify TKD by adding some joint locks and pressure points to make Tae Kwon Do more versitile. Tae Kwon Do is perfect for what it was designed for, not crowde bar-room fights, but on the battle field while wearing full combat gear and carrying a rifle. And the Korean Military still uses Tae Kwon Do as the insurgents in Iraq, like the Viet Cong in Vietnam, will find out.

 

[Kevin Walker]

I don't believe that. First, that was Gen Choi's viewpoint, and his perception was tempered by military experience. Each style will have viewpoints of fighting based the ideas of its founder and succeeding generations.
For example, in Chung Do Kwan, we do practice executing attacks to vital points. Our Grandmaster told us specifically where to aim attacks.
I will not deny that Tae kwon Do, especially Chung Do Kwan/Oh Do Kwan was used by the Korean military. It developed tremendous power, accuracy, and devastating technique. But those techniques work regardless of situation. My Grandmaster told us stories of having to use TKD to defend himself against armed gangsters in Korea before he was ever in the military.
As far as using grappling in a crowded bar or public place, I really would recommend against that. How do you defend yourself on the ground when two of his buddies decide to come to his aid? Tae Kwon Do is designed for defense against bigger attackers, multiple attackers, weapons, etc. There is no "as long as it's under these conditions". It is effective period.

Hi,

Yes, General Choi was influenced by his military experience when he helped develop TKD for the Korean Military, obviously. And yes, General Choi did add some wrist locks and pressure points to make Tae Kwon Do more versitile - But TKD still is a highly specialized martial art designed purposely for the combat soldier wearing full field gear and holding a rifle. Try applying Brazilian Jiu Jitsu under those conditions, I think BJJ would fail!

Tae Kwon Do is an effective but specialized martial art. A TKD'ist would be at a disadvantage in a ring with a BJJ player but at a great advantage in a battlefield in hand-to-hand combat with the enemy, as has been proven in Vietnam and probably again over in Iraq.

 

[the_kicking_fiend]

I don't really agree about self-defence being an issue on the battlefield. Hand to hand combat is very rare on the battlefield, especially considering the assortment of modern weaponry available to the military these days. I've heard of the SAS and such using their knives on men when the bullets ran out in Afghanistan caves.

Also, people have mentioned that cross training may be the best way of getting a good self-defence system established for yourself but I can't help but remember my master: "It's better to be a master of one trade than a jack of all"

d

 

[Marginal]

Again, I refer back to a few things that I've said in past posts. In the first few UFC events, there were no weight classes. When it was yanked from PPV by the politicians, the only way it could come back is with the new rules. IE- weight classes and a more inclusive list of things that you cant do.

Yeah, but that ignores why weight classes were a requirement. Are you actually trying to claim that John Hess won fights with good technique rather than size?

As for the BJJ guys crosstraining in MT....in you look again at the first few, you'll notice that Royce did not throw half of the punches or kicks that you see the BJJ guys throwing today, so that IMO, blows your theory out of the water! Sure, they're doing them today...just like the strikers are learning to grapple!!!!!! So your point is????????????????

My point is, that they're crosstraining NOW, like I said in my last post. That BJJ needed more than just what Royce demonstrated in the first three UFC's once strikers adapted to anti grappling? If they're crosstraining, they're not doing BJJ. They're doing BJJ and MT. Thus, saying BJJ people can punch and kick too is hooey. Pure BJJ people can't outside of that low kick. (The vids have spoken afterall.)

I was recently on Bullshido...I came across a section of clips of fights.

Wow. That's great, and I'm sure you saw the utter invariable truth on there too. (Cause it's not completely mindlessly biased towards MMA or anything.)

One that stuck in my mind was a Muay Thai fighter vs. a TKD fighter.

Yep. I've seen that stupid clip. I've also looked up that tournament's history. TKD fighters have won it several times over the years. Must be because all TKD fighters suck because Bullshido has that one clip. (That's the conclusion the BS'ers reached at least.)

The TKD guy was getting pounded. Check it out. It also amazed me as how the TKD guys hands never got above his waist.

Kinda a side effect of training for sport TKD which actively discourages the use of the hands. (It's almost impossible to score with a hand technique to the body, and head strikes w/the hands are restricted.) Since blocking a kick can break your arm, evasion is encouraged vs keeping your hands up etc. However, not all TKD is trained this way which is what makes your post and the Bullshido vid utterly worthless.

Train with hand strikes to the head etc, and you create a very different TKD fighter. I pointed this out last post, but you still pulled out the Bullshido vid.

Now, I'm not saying that is how ALL TKD fighters fight, but that certainly paints a negative picture of TKD.

Uh huh. You don't beleive that of all TKD, but you think it's a good representation to draw all your conclusions from. Makes sense.

You seem to be fixated with this weight thing. Let me ask you, have you ever done any grappling before??

Moot since grappling is not independent of weight. It's sheer hype.

Every grappling instructor that I've talked to has always talked about the tech. being the most important factor here. You can know 1000 submissions, but if you dont know the positions and how to hold them, then what good are the 1000 submissions??

That has nothing to do with weight not being an advantage. Boxing coaches tell their students the same thing.

Part of keeping those positions, is having good tech. in the game of grappling, especially when you have two guys with equal skill, its like a chess game. They have to out-think each other. The bottom line...the one with the better tech. will come out on top.

If one has better tech, then they're not equally skilled. The bigger one still gets to make the smaller one work harder assuming skill's equal. He can apply more weight while on top while doing nothing other than riding the smaller man etc.

Helio Gracie is a small man. He learned the techs. from someone who was of a different body size than him. He had to modify the techs. to fit HIM. That is why GJJ is so effective. Due to his small size, he needed to make sure that the tech. that he was doing was perfect.

Then he developed superior skill. This offset the disadvantage of being smaller. Get a big man of equal skill, and Helio would've had his work cut out for him.

If you want to continue this discussion, thats fine. If not, thats fine too. IMO, you seem to be getting a little upset because I'm not agreeing with you.

I'm annoyed because you're trying to comment on an art you evidently know absolutely nothing about. (For that matter, what would the reaction be on BS if I went to the forums and said "TKD's not worthless". I'd be flamed to high holy hell.) I'm being polite compared to the compilers of your source material.

I might as well just start linking to www.matbattle.com for "proof" of grappling's unsuitability or say that JKD is dedicated to head kicks and yowling like a cat because that's what Bruce Lee did in his movies. You're basically reciting the MMA partyline (which for the record, is "TKD is worthless. In fact, it teaches you habits so terrible that you're actually worse off than an untrained person in a real fight.") without any information on TKD, and no real facts to support the assertion that grappling means that size is meaningless. I've had the exact same conversation on Sherdog, RMA, and a few other places already. If you want to actually discuss either, that's fine, but I want more than what Jim Brown uttered in UFC 2 as proof that there's some knowledge being applied here.

Kevin Walker: Gen Choi spent years refining and adapting TKD to its new niche outside of the millitary. To claim that it works solely in conditions involving combat boots and full combat gear is absurd. If you ever went into traditional TKD school, I think you'd have a much harder time calling it a specialzed niche art. TKD as taught isn't that far removed from Shotokan, and other similar styles of karate. Greater focus on kicking, but that is not TKD's exclusive focus and never has been.

 

[MJS]

Yeah, but that ignores why weight classes were a requirement. Are you actually trying to claim that John Hess won fights with good technique rather than size?

Dude..John Hess???? People talk about no skill. That guy was throwing the worst s*** that I've seen. He won due to the other guy getting an injury to his eye. But hey...he still got the win right!

My point is, that they're crosstraining NOW, like I said in my last post. That BJJ needed more than just what Royce demonstrated in the first three UFC's once strikers adapted to anti grappling? If they're crosstraining, they're not doing BJJ. They're doing BJJ and MT. Thus, saying BJJ people can punch and kick too is hooey. Pure BJJ people can't outside of that low kick. (The vids have spoken afterall.)

Yup.. BJJ needed to improve on striking and the stand up guys needed to improve on grappling. And that low kick that you're talking about, I'm assuming is the one that you always see Royce throwing. Do you know why he throws that kick and what its meant to do???

Wow. That's great, and I'm sure you saw the utter invariable truth on there too. (Cause it's not completely mindlessly biased towards MMA or anything.)

Ok.

Yep. I've seen that stupid clip. I've also looked up that tournament's history. TKD fighters have won it several times over the years. Must be because all TKD fighters suck because Bullshido has that one clip. (That's the conclusion the BS'ers reached at least.)

Dude, ever hear the saying, "A picture is worth a thousand words." Like I said...I dont to TKD...sooooo..therefore, I'm basing my opinion on only what I've seen. Thats why I asked for some clarification on the art.

Kinda a side effect of training for sport TKD which actively discourages the use of the hands. (It's almost impossible to score with a hand technique to the body, and head strikes w/the hands are restricted.) Since blocking a kick can break your arm, evasion is encouraged vs keeping your hands up etc. However, not all TKD is trained this way which is what makes your post and the Bullshido vid utterly worthless

Well, again, all the TKD that I"ve seen is like that so, thats why I said it!!! And you fight like you train. I have yet to have my arm broken, and I keep my hands up. Its impossible to hit the body??? Come on man, are you serious here???? So let me ask you this. If you take a sport TKD guy and put him in a street fight, how is he going to keep his hands? Up or down?? Sure, getting out of the way is a good thing, but its not always an option. So, another quesiton for you. It seems to me that all of the TKD that I've seen is sport. My question--Is there any traditional TKD left? Does anyone teach the non sport method??

Train with hand strikes to the head etc, and you create a very different TKD fighter. I pointed this out last post, but you still pulled out the Bullshido vid.

Again, thats the only way I've seen those guys fight.

Uh huh. You don't beleive that of all TKD, but you think it's a good representation to draw all your conclusions from. Makes sense.

See above.

Moot since grappling is not independent of weight. It's sheer hype.

Nope, its not moot. I was asking a simple question. Do you or have you ever grappled???

I'm annoyed because you're trying to comment on an art you evidently know absolutely nothing about. (For that matter, what would the reaction be on BS if I went to the forums and said "TKD's not worthless". I'd be flamed to high holy hell.) I'm being polite compared to the compilers of your source material.

And if you're such the expert, rather than getting so pissed off, maybe you should take the time to help someone out who doesnt have as good of an understanding. You're getting annoyed because I'm questioning things. Give some constructive answers. You're commenting on grappling. Do you do it? Oh wait, I forgot, you dont want to answer. Why is that?? Dont worry though, because if you have a question, I'd be happy to answer it for you. And if I can't, I'll find someone who can answer it. I wont bash you for a question...you know, kind of what you're doing to me!!!!

Mike

 

[MJS]

Traditional Tae Kwon Do sees itself as a program for total physical, mental, spiritual, and social well being. Self defense is only part of it. In short, it is a Way of Life. Sport Tae Kwon Do is designed to win points and tournaments. As a result, its techniques have been adapted and steamlined to make this possible.

Thanks for the reply!! At least someone here is offering some explaination.

Mike

 

[glad2bhere]

C'mon, Mike.

For 6 pages one person after another has been saying the same thing; each in his own way. What part of "sport vs combat" is not understood here? Want to pair a boxer with a wrestler with a karate-ka with a judo-ka? Still wondering whose gonna win? Thats easy. Whose rules are you playing by? Want to know what art will win on the street, in actual combat, against muggers, against street punks, against road rage, against antagonized old ladies....? How about on rainy days? How about on hot days? How about close to the Equator? What about on Mars?

These discussions never really go anywhere because people are not actually interested in reconciling anything, the positions are too fraught with subjectivity, the parameters either too circumspect or too situation-specific. To my way of thinking the only method to resolve questions such as these are to revive the ancient gladitorial games and have individuals of specified disciplines fight to the death. Absent that, seems like all folks are involved in is the martial arts equivalent of "how many angels can sit on the head of a pin". FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Marginal]

Dude..John Hess???? People talk about no skill. That guy was throwing the worst s*** that I've seen. He won due to the other guy getting an injury to his eye. But hey...he still got the win right!

The point is, he won because he was huge. Even without the eye injury, the guy was being tossed around like a rag doll. For that matter, what were the announcers saying in the Coleman vs Frye championship match? That Coleman had an atvantage because he was taller and could establish a stronger base.

And that low kick that you're talking about, I'm assuming is the one that you always see Royce throwing. Do you know why he throws that kick and what its meant to do???

Yep, I do. But that wasn't my point. My point as, it's stupid to assume that's all there is to BJJ and striking just because that's all you've seen on video.

Dude, ever hear the saying, "A picture is worth a thousand words." Like I said...I dont to TKD...sooooo..therefore, I'm basing my opinion on only what I've seen. Thats why I asked for some clarification on the art.

Yessss.... But, you could've accomplished that much simply by reading a book, hitting google, or asking that outright rather than saying "TKD's not going to work in a bar fight because they're too close to kick the other guy." beforehand.

I have yet to have my arm broken, and I keep my hands up.

Same here, (ya know... Since I don't train sport TKD) but it does actually happen in sport TKD. Self-defense efficacy aside, they can generate some impressive power with those kicks.

Its impossible to hit the body??? Come on man, are you serious here????

I said that due to thenature of the rules, it's almost impossible to SCORE with a hand technique to the body. (You have to induce "trembling shock" to score which involves displacing your opponent a set amount of distance. Punches really can't accomplish this.)

So let me ask you this. If you take a sport TKD guy and put him in a street fight, how is he going to keep his hands? Up or down??

Doesn't matter to me since I train TKD, but don't train sport TKD. I'm making no claims that sport TKD is effective. I'm saying that TKD trained without those sporting rules in mind creates a much different fighter. Because as you say, "you fight as you train".

It seems to me that all of the TKD that I've seen is sport. My question--Is there any traditional TKD left? Does anyone teach the non sport method??

Yes. Quite a few WTF schools will teach a more traditional TKD outside of the olympic sparring rules. ITF TKD traditionally trains with punches being allowed to the face etc, so they're usually not going to be fighting with their arms at their sides. (Still depends on the school) You see Olympic style sparring more because of the Olympics and the various other tournament circuts that lead to the olympics etc.

Nope, its not moot. I was asking a simple question. Do you or have you ever grappled???

Sure. Do standup ho sin sul stuff in my TKD class. (Since it's "worthless" JJJ style stuff dunno if that counts to the MMA mind.)

And if you're such the expert, rather than getting so pissed off, maybe you should take the time to help someone out who doesnt have as good of an understanding. You're getting annoyed because I'm questioning things.

You're not really questioning things. You're arguing from preconceptions that arent' especailly well informed. You're attacking sport TKD which doesn't really bother me at all except for the guilty by association stigma it drags with it.

Give some constructive answers.

I'm still waiting for you to answer why weight classes were required by the states etc if weight means nothing.

You're commenting on grappling. Do you do it? Oh wait, I forgot, you dont want to answer.

Why does it matter if I grapple or not? It doesn't seem to matter if you do, or know anything at all about TKD while trying to "question" it.

Why is that?? Dont worry though, because if you have a question, I'd be happy to answer it for you. And if I can't, I'll find someone who can answer it.

Fine. Get me a real answer on the weight classes, and then I'll worry about answering yours.