The effectiveness of Tae Kwon Do in self defense...

[MichiganTKD]

I think the striking arts have an advantage over grappling for the simple reason that while you are upright you have more options. Not that Tae Kwon Do or the other styles are inherently better, but I think that when you go to the ground, especially on purpose, you limit what you can do.
Upright, you have much better control over your response to a situation. You can block, attack, evade, or run. You can do these against one or several opponents. On the ground, it is simply much harder to pull these off successfully. Not to say an experienced grappler doesn't have options, but I think your options decrease when you are no longer upright.

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear H-H:

".....TO EVERYONE WHO SAYS YOU WILL GET KICKED BY THE DUDE'S FRIENDS WHILE ON THE GROUND: What is to prevent the EXACT SAME THING happening while standing up?! WHY ARE WE ASSUMING YOU WON'T GET HIT FROM BEHIND WHILE TRADING BLOWS?,....."

Just to reinforce your thought I direct peoples' attention back to videos taken in South Africa during the Soweto riots years back. Individuals were encircled and pummeled, slashed or stabbed repeatedly by a number of individuals at the SAME time. There was none of this individual-attacks-in rapid-succession as seen in the movies. In like manner, videos of actual muderous attacks in prison exercise areas show blindingly fast ambushes wherein the attackers work as a team with the individual designated to do the stabbing executing 6 or seven rapid thrusts to the chest while confederates simply hamper the individuals' ability to protect himself. Here in the States consider the Rodney King-type beatings of LEO-s against an individual. How come there is no Trinity-like sequence of MA techniques as seen in THE MATRIX to counter these multiple attacks? There isn't because a true fight does not go down this way.

Some time ago I mentioned that what people were discussing were not really fights but "challenges" and these scenerios I am sharing are my frame of reference for making those comments. What I am describing are actual fights where a number of people are acting in concert to take-out the individual. It is a melee with murderous intent and the attackers are not particularly fased by a punch in the face or a knee in the balls. I'm sorry. I don't mean to throw cold water on a good discussion, but I really think folks need to make sure they are comparing apples to apples. Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Littledragon]

I think the striking arts have an advantage over grappling for the simple reason that while you are upright you have more options. Not that Tae Kwon Do or the other styles are inherently better, but I think that when you go to the ground, especially on purpose, you limit what you can do.
Upright, you have much better control over your response to a situation. You can block, attack, evade, or run. You can do these against one or several opponents. On the ground, it is simply much harder to pull these off successfully. Not to say an experienced grappler doesn't have options, but I think your options decrease when you are no longer upright.

I do agree with you since I love striking the most but if you are ever taken down on the ground it is good to know some grappling.

 

[Littledragon]

I think TKD is good for self defense but just can't see sport Tae Kwon Do be used sucesfully in a street situation. The good thing about traditional TKD is it emphasizes on self defense too but sport just emphasizes on how to score a point and win a tournament so I think the practicioners whol only do Olympic Style TKD are cheating themselves.

Just imagine Steven Lopez being taken to the ground by Royce Gracie, what could he do then?

Tarek

 

[DragonFooter]

i wouldn't say sport taekwondo has no SD value. Sport TKD are fast and agile which i think makes them hard to hit. Futhermore it doesn't mean that the practitioners cant hit with full power if opportunity comes.
But yes I agree that traditional TKD have more SD value. But if you ever sparred with a good WTF exponent im sure u'll be overwhelmed by his kicks the first time.
And yeah upright position have more mobility than on the ground don't deny that fact!. And then the opponents can resist your grappling technique!. Can they resist a strike? NOT. But perhaps they can take the strike. Depends on where you strike. A side piercing kick in the center and below the ribs stuns anyone allowing you a window of few seconds.
Thats becoz below the ribs is called the diagphram, and it's not protected by adequate muscle.

Just imagine Steven Lopez being taken to the ground by Royce Gracie, what could he do then?

That's if Steven Lopez get's taken down...... What if Steven Lopez caughts Royce gracie on the arm with a side piercing kick? Arm breaks, match over dude! This happens so regular in sparring competitions even with control.

 

[Littledragon]

i wouldn't say sport taekwondo has no SD value. Sport TKD are fast and agile which i think makes them hard to hit. Futhermore it doesn't mean that the practitioners cant hit with full power if opportunity comes.
But yes I agree that traditional TKD have more SD value. But if you ever sparred with a good WTF exponent im sure u'll be overwhelmed by his kicks the first time.
And yeah upright position have more mobility than on the ground don't deny that fact!. And then the opponents can resist your grappling technique!. Can they resist a strike? NOT. But perhaps they can take the strike. Depends on where you strike. A side piercing kick in the center and below the ribs stuns anyone allowing you a window of few seconds.
Thats becoz below the ribs is called the diagphram, and it's not protected by adequate muscle.


That's if Steven Lopez get's taken down...... What if Steven Lopez caughts Royce gracie on the arm with a side piercing kick? Arm breaks, match over dude! This happens so regular in sparring competitions even with control.

Steven Lopez is great in the sport aspect but as a martial artist I don't see him as a very good one besides the fact he is good at the sport. Royce however is a real master martial artist who could easily defeat Steven Lopez in a fight.

 

[terryl965]

Littledragon I have seen Master Lopez and also your Master Gracie they both do sport TKD and yes they both do old school as well, these two great individuals would never fight each other to much respect for each other for that to happen. For your statement that Master Lopez is not a good Martial Artsit maybe you should see him outside the sport venue your opion would change. I enjoy most of your post but do not belittle someone that you seem not to know much about outside the sport aspect..GOD BLESS AMERICA

 

[Littledragon]

Littledragon I have seen Master Lopez and also your Master Gracie they both do sport TKD and yes they both do old school as well, these two great individuals would never fight each other to much respect for each other for that to happen. For your statement that Master Lopez is not a good Martial Artsit maybe you should see him outside the sport venue your opion would change. I enjoy most of your post but do not belittle someone that you seem not to know much about outside the sport aspect..GOD BLESS AMERICA

Yes that was wrong of me and I shoudlnt have said that. I just don't see how someone training in the sport aspect all his life can be effective in the street. Royce has proved that he is a great fighter and I don't think Lopez is at a level high enough where Royce would even fight him.

 

[Zepp]

TO EVERYONE WHO SAYS YOU WILL GET KICKED BY THE DUDE'S FRIENDS WHILE ON THE GROUND: What is to prevent the EXACT SAME THING happening while standing up?! WHY ARE WE ASSUMING YOU WON'T GET HIT FROM BEHIND WHILE TRADING BLOWS?

Where is there any proof that it's better to be striking rather than grappling when you're jumped? WHY IS EVERYONE MAKING THIS ASSUMPTION? It's one of those pieces of "obvious" wisdom that everyone accepts without question. But we have no reason to believe it's true!

Simple, really. While standing you have greater mobility and a better chance of evading an opponent's strikes. While your arms are free (and not being used to hold another opponent) you are better able to block/parry the strikes of an opponent.

hedgehogey, have you ever tried sparring multiple opponents using rules that allow for grappling? If you haven't, I suggest you try it,- it's fun and a good educational experience in terms of self-defense. If you have, please tell us how you managed to defend against one opponent while grappling with another. We could all benefit from that knowledge.

Bruce, I think the only effective personal defense for the grim situations you've described involve weapons, preferably a firearm. Possibly a sword, or some polearm type weapon, but I'd choose the gun. No one's chances are very good in the middle of a murderous mob out to kill them. I think the situation most of us envision here is something like being mugged by two large thugs.

 

[hedgehogey]

Simple, really. While standing you have greater mobility and a better chance of evading an opponent's strikes. While your arms are free (and not being used to hold another opponent) you are better able to block/parry the strikes of an opponent.

Yes, but theoretically aren't you better off using the other guy as a shield? Don't debate that, it's not my point. My point is, it's all theory and conjecture, until we see some video or something.

All we have right now is the "skater beating up four fratboys" video in which we see tackling taking out three out of four fratboys.

[quoe]
hedgehogey, have you ever tried sparring multiple opponents using rules that allow for grappling? [/quote]
Yes.

If you haven't, I suggest you try it,- it's fun and a good educational experience in terms of self-defense. If you have, please tell us how you managed to defend against one opponent while grappling with another. We could all benefit from that knowledge.

Couple of things:

1: Steer one opponent around from a dominant clinch.

2: Guard or belly up backmount work very well for shielding yourself.

3: Applying a quick submission is sometimes faster than using strikes

 

[Zepp]

Yes, but theoretically aren't you better off using the other guy as a shield? Don't debate that, it's not my point. My point is, it's all theory and conjecture, until we see some video or something.

A lot of things we talk about here are based on conjecture and theory. I don't think that a video of any particular incident would be absolute proof of a strategy working or not working.

Couple of things:

1: Steer one opponent around from a dominant clinch.

2: Guard or belly up backmount work very well for shielding yourself.

3: Applying a quick submission is sometimes faster than using strikes

I could see 1 and 2 working in some cases, but I have to disagree on 3. Whether or not it's faster to disable an opponent using strikes or a submission technique will depend entirely on which you're better trained in. Plenty of people have knocked someone out or crippled them with a single punch or kick. Heck, a few months ago I posted a thread about a guy who died as a result of a single punch. (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13375 )

If you think you can better defend yourself against multiple opponents by grappling, you're probably right, but that's not any kind of proof that striking is less effective.

 

[Littledragon]

I am a striker and a grappler and anyone who says striking is not effective is wrong. Striking is the man's grreatest weapon, kicking can cause damage like no other. I would first use my strikes take out the leg with a Muay Thai kick or side kick the knee, if the guy is bigger than me I would not want to stand up with him and go to the ground where strength does not matter, you see 245 lbs guys tapping out 1 sec after the choke is being applyed, look how fast those guys tap after one does an arm bar on them. It takes maybe less than a second before they tap for an armbar so size does not matter on the ground. Look at Royce Gracie he was the smallest one in the UFC yet choked out every fighter he fought. I think in order to defend your self sucesfully in any street brawl situation you should know how to strike and grapple because you never know how things might turn out and its better to be safe then not sorry but DEAD.

TAREK

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Zepp:

I think you are quite right, of course. The only reason I am pressing such grim scenerios is to counter some of the salesmanship that is often associated with KMA. It also doesn't help when the media supports some unrealistic expectations for the KMA either. There are often stories of Black-Belted children who thought they could whup-up on someone twice their size because their instructor led them to believe in their abilities beyond realistic considerations. Thats a hard way to learn the truth. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Han-Mi]

It's better than nothing, but I would have to say that olympic style TKD isn't much of a martial art in the respect that it is a sport. However, the things you learn are very useful in self defense. My suggestion is to cross train a bit. I train under Chung Do Kwan TKD and we like to mix in some of the other styles so that we are not caught unpreapred in a situation that is not very well trained for in TKD. I have tried olympic TKD, and I kept getting in trouble for punching them, You have to realize that, just as in boxing, you are only developing one weapon for one way to fight.

Basically, your off to a good start, and you should have no torouble learning some basics from other styles to help you in your street self-defense. You may want to look into a different school that doesnt focus so much on the sport though.

 

[Littledragon]

It's better than nothing, but I would have to say that olympic style TKD isn't much of a martial art in the respect that it is a sport. However, the things you learn are very useful in self defense. My suggestion is to cross train a bit. I train under Chung Do Kwan TKD and we like to mix in some of the other styles so that we are not caught unpreapred in a situation that is not very well trained for in TKD. I have tried olympic TKD, and I kept getting in trouble for punching them, You have to realize that, just as in boxing, you are only developing one weapon for one way to fight.

Basically, your off to a good start, and you should have no torouble learning some basics from other styles to help you in your street self-defense. You may want to look into a different school that doesnt focus so much on the sport though.

I agree with you, just training in sport TKD is cheating one self in terms of street combat, but yes I believe traditional TKD emphasizes alot on practical self defense and I think thats how TKD should be taugh in addition to the sport.

 

[Marginal]

if the guy is bigger than me I would not want to stand up with him

Depends on if the guy's slow or not.

and go to the ground where strength does not matter, you see 245 lbs guys tapping out 1 sec after the choke is being applyed, look how fast those guys tap after one does an arm bar on them. It takes maybe less than a second before they tap for an armbar so size does not matter on the ground.

Size always matters. Read what anyone who's fought Ortiz has said. For that matter, ask yourself why the UFC has weight divisions if grappling moots all size and strength advantages. For that matter, why does high school wrestling, judo etc have weight divisions if size and strength mean nothing?

Look at Royce Gracie he was the smallest one in the UFC yet choked out every fighter he fought.

He wasn't the smallest, and he didn't choke out everyone he fought.

I think in order to defend your self sucesfully in any street brawl situation you should know how to strike and grapple because you never know how things might turn out and its better to be safe then not sorry but DEAD.

This is true.

 

[MJS]

Littledragon I have seen Master Lopez and also your Master Gracie they both do sport TKD and yes they both do old school as well

Gracie does sport TKD??? Since when??

mike

 

[MJS]

i wouldn't say sport taekwondo has no SD value. Sport TKD are fast and agile which i think makes them hard to hit.

But not impossible to hit.

But yes I agree that traditional TKD have more SD value. But if you ever sparred with a good WTF exponent im sure u'll be overwhelmed by his kicks the first time.

And thats why you take the person out of their game. Why trade off kicks with a kicker???

And yeah upright position have more mobility than on the ground don't deny that fact!. And then the opponents can resist your grappling technique!. Can they resist a strike? NOT. But perhaps they can take the strike. Depends on where you strike. A side piercing kick in the center and below the ribs stuns anyone allowing you a window of few seconds.
Thats becoz below the ribs is called the diagphram, and it's not protected by adequate muscle.

Resist the tech??? Of course they're gonna resist, but what happens?? They still go down!!! Again, dont assume that the one shot, one kill is always going to work.

That's if Steven Lopez get's taken down...... What if Steven Lopez caughts Royce gracie on the arm with a side piercing kick? Arm breaks, match over dude! This happens so regular in sparring competitions even with control.

Please tell me that you're not relying on the one shot-one kill mentality here??? I've been hit in the arm during sparring sessions and my arm didnt break! Again, keep in mind that any time you're extending a limb, that is what the grappler is waiting for.

Mike

 

[MJS]

Size always matters. Read what anyone who's fought Ortiz has said. For that matter, ask yourself why the UFC has weight divisions if grappling moots all size and strength advantages. For that matter, why does high school wrestling, judo etc have weight divisions if size and strength mean nothing?

Not true! Its the tech. that matters. Rules have changed. In the first few UFC events, there were no weight classes. That was a rule that came into effect later on. Again, its more of a sport event, just like wrestling. Example-Keith Hackney fought that Sumo guy in UFC 3 I believe. That guy was taller and heavier, and what happened??? He got pounded by Hackney. Sure, Hackney hurt his hand, but he got the win. You're making it sound like if you're ever facing someone bigger, then you're basically going to be screwed! In the long run, its going to come down to tech. and timing.


Mike

 

[MJS]

As far as using grappling in a crowded bar or public place, I really would recommend against that. How do you defend yourself on the ground when two of his buddies decide to come to his aid? Tae Kwon Do is designed for defense against bigger attackers, multiple attackers, weapons, etc. There is no "as long as it's under these conditions". It is effective period.

First off, in a crowded bar, I really dont think that much kicking will be done at all. As for the mult attackers....again, with the typical comeback. A mult attacker situation is going to involve them coming at you at the same time, not one at a time. What makes TKD so effective here?? There are many other stand up arts that cover the same thing.

Mike