The effectiveness of Tae Kwon Do in self defense...

[MA-Caver]

It all comes down to the individual in the end. Your personal awareness and training should come to the forefront in presure situations. TKD, Boxing and Wrestling are all olympic sports I don't know that I would have looked for fight with Ali, Roy Jones, or Kurt Angle. I guess when it comes right down to it I can't see how the sport destroys one's ability to defend one's self.

Strike fast, Strike hard, Strike Often - You'll be Ok

Tex_BB the "sport" doesn't destroy one's ability to defend one-self but how effective is it in the real world? Put yourself in a crowded bar, some jerk-off decides he doesn't like the way you're drinking your beer and wants a fight. You may or may not be able with TKD take him down, but can you do it without putting others around you at risk of getting caught by an errant kick. Probably not. Most people will make a wide (as possible) ring around you two once they get wind that testosterones are being dumped all over the floor and two bulls are going to go at it. They'll do it to keep from getting hurt and to satisfy the bloodlust that lies dormant in every human being and watch.
98% of the fights are over within two minutes. Sooner if one is a BB in a martial art... bouncers still have to work their way from the front door or back wall of the bar to get to you two. The idea is to get the jerk on the floor as quickly as possible. For me this means doing it before the "ring" forms around us. This also means doing it without hurting anyone else. So a round-house kick or even punch isn't going to work. So straight line direct to the target and as closely as you can put your body to the target so that the energy expended isn't wasted on distance.

two bits that probably don't make sense.
:asian:

 

[Littledragon]

Tex_BB the "sport" doesn't destroy one's ability to defend one-self but how effective is it in the real world? Put yourself in a crowded bar, some jerk-off decides he doesn't like the way you're drinking your beer and wants a fight. You may or may not be able with TKD take him down, but can you do it without putting others around you at risk of getting caught by an errant kick. Probably not. Most people will make a wide (as possible) ring around you two once they get wind that testosterones are being dumped all over the floor and two bulls are going to go at it. They'll do it to keep from getting hurt and to satisfy the bloodlust that lies dormant in every human being and watch.
98% of the fights are over within two minutes. Sooner if one is a BB in a martial art... bouncers still have to work their way from the front door or back wall of the bar to get to you two. The idea is to get the jerk on the floor as quickly as possible. For me this means doing it before the "ring" forms around us. This also means doing it without hurting anyone else. So a round-house kick or even punch isn't going to work. So straight line direct to the target and as closely as you can put your body to the target so that the energy expended isn't wasted on distance.

two bits that probably don't make sense.
:asian:

I agree, if I were in that situation I would strike low and get him on the ground and use a submission and control him untill I can explain to a bouncer or the owner what has happened and that he attacked me first, I want to end the fight as quickly as possible with out seriously hurting the opponent and control him without doing alot of damage to him.

 

[Kevin Walker]

The effectiveness of Tae Kwon Do in self defense...

I have been doing Tae Kwon Do for over 10 years. As I have recently began developing a mass interest in Mixed Martial Arts/ Vale-Tudo/ Brazillian Jiu-Jitsu I have questioned how effective Tae Kwon Do is for self defense. As the sport aspect has developed a dramatically high level of mass popularity world wide since the WTF was created and USTU and other international TKD organizations, TKD has been highly popularized as a sport as it was an official Olypmic sport in 2000. I train with one of the top teams in the United States for Olympic Style Tae Kwon Do and have came to realize that it is now more of a sport than an art of self-defense. The whole emphasis on training is for the sport. What happens when you get in a street situation and you get tackled to the ground or jumped by 3 guys, how will the sport aspect be applyed sucesfully in self-defense?

As World Champions, National Champions are current at my school I can't help to think that they are very good at the SPORT but they don't have the right knowledge and tools to apply effecitvely in a street self-defense situation.

What are your opinions about Olympic Tae Kwon Do as an art of self-defense?

I was fortunate enough to have met and spoken with General Choi at the Providence Civic Center in the early 1970s, and as explained to me through one of his proteges, Tae Kwon Do was developed for purely military applications, that is while wearing full combat gear.

The soldier, while wearing combat boots with a lug sole, helmet, 50-100 lb backpack, full combat uniform, webgear, bullet-proof kevlar vest, bandoleer of ammo, and holding his M-16 or main battle rifle has to do hand-to-hand combat with the enemy usually on uneven and muddy terrain.

As I was told, General Choi, and others, design Tae Kwon Do for this combat situation, using the most powerful part of the body against the weakest part of your opponents, in Tae Kwon Do that would be a kick to the head. Kicking the enemy in the helmet with heavy combat boots is devastating. You can still do this while holding your M-16 and loaded down with gear, which is why I was told that TKD is about 70% kicks.

Therefore Tae Kwon Do has limited self-defense applications because it is so highly specialized. Doing a spinning cresent kick to the head in a crowded bar or nightclub and snapping a guys neck is overkill. Tae Kwon Do is one of the hardest styles of martial arts in existence and doesn't believe in pressure points, since anywhere you hit your opponent should disable them in TKD.

So correct me if I'm wrong, but Tae Kwon Do is most effective in a combat zone by soldiers holding rifles with two hands and lugging backpacks, yet is limited in a street self-defense situation.

 

[MichiganTKD]

I don't believe that. First, that was Gen Choi's viewpoint, and his perception was tempered by military experience. Each style will have viewpoints of fighting based the ideas of its founder and succeeding generations.
For example, in Chung Do Kwan, we do practice executing attacks to vital points. Our Grandmaster told us specifically where to aim attacks.
I will not deny that Tae kwon Do, especially Chung Do Kwan/Oh Do Kwan was used by the Korean military. It developed tremendous power, accuracy, and devastating technique. But those techniques work regardless of situation. My Grandmaster told us stories of having to use TKD to defend himself against armed gangsters in Korea before he was ever in the military.
As far as using grappling in a crowded bar or public place, I really would recommend against that. How do you defend yourself on the ground when two of his buddies decide to come to his aid? Tae Kwon Do is designed for defense against bigger attackers, multiple attackers, weapons, etc. There is no "as long as it's under these conditions". It is effective period.

 

[Marginal]

Even then, General Choi also felt pressure points were important enough to include in his Encyclopedia, along with HKD/JJ-esque standup grappling, some ground fighting and so on. He always depicts strikes to vital areas in the pattern application photos etc.

 

[DragonFooter]

Man, this issue have been discussed so much that it's getting boring but I decided to join in the fun anyway.
Firstly ask yourself why the situation grows to a fight? In reality really, are there always idiots who try to pick a fight in a bar? If so what are u doin there? Are you aggravating the situation?
Nowadays there are hardly one-on-one fights. If you're try to control someone on the ground don't forget about the 3 other friends who'd like to treat you with a beer bottle to the back of your head! Conclusion.. don't go to a bar(at least the ones with bad asses) LOL.

In the street it's the same, why would anyone pick a fight with you? I belif if u suddenly harass someone on the street(male preferably) 90% will run away(martial arts or not) thinking you are some nut. Ever seen a dog suddenly chase a pedestrian?

In fact there's a report in the news not so long ago that Richard Simmons ***** slapped an experienced MMA fighter who bad mouthed him. So how effective is MMA ?

All in all , martial arts or not, use your head often. Martial arts is just a bonus.

 

[Marginal]

In fact there's a report in the news not so long ago that Richard Simmons ***** slapped an experienced MMA fighter who bad mouthed him. So how effective is MMA ?

MMA? I thought he was just a Harley salesman...

 

[hedgehogey]

As far as using grappling in a crowded bar or public place, I really would recommend against that. How do you defend yourself on the ground when two of his buddies decide to come to his aid?

You run or get your *** kicked. Same as for TKD. Don't kid yourself.

Tae Kwon Do is designed for defense against bigger attackers, multiple attackers, weapons, etc. There is no "as long as it's under these conditions". It is effective period.

No it isn't. And it doesn't work for those things. TAEKWONDO CAN'T EVEN DEFEAT ONE PERSON. How the **** do you expect it to be a gang of people?*

*For TKD not working, see matches on bullshido.net

In fact there's a report in the news not so long ago that Richard Simmons ***** slapped an experienced MMA fighter who bad mouthed him. So how effective is MMA ?

Apperantly it gives you the strength of will to not break richard simmons in half.

That took nuts, I admit, but cmon, it's RICHARD GODAMN SIMMONS!

 

[MichiganTKD]

When people who practice sport Tae Kwon Do enter these XMA contests, I'm not surprised that they lose. Sport Tae Kwon Do does not develop power or the self defense mindset.

Don't criticize the effectiveness of Tae Kwon Do because you some guys lose in steel cage matches. Those were sport guys who trained to make points. The guys I trained with were some of the toughest I ever knew. Some days I was lucky to leave class with no broken bones.

Yes, Tae Kwon Do is effective in many situations despite what you may think. You must train properly and have the right mindset. Believe me, the guys I came up with did not train for tournaments. And I don't teach tournament sparring except to a few students who are interested in it.

 

[MA-Caver]

I agree, if I were in that situation I would strike low and get him on the ground and use a submission and control him untill I can explain to a bouncer or the owner what has happened and that he attacked me first, I want to end the fight as quickly as possible with out seriously hurting the opponent and control him without doing alot of damage to him.

Well, (no offense) you're 16 and so (in America anyway) Bouncers and Managers tend to throw both (all) participants out unless they actually witnessed the whole thing and saw that you were not there to cause trouble but to stop it. Even then it depends upon the mood of the Bouncers and Management. Some have zero tolerance for any type of altercations. It's not good for business. Again it also depends upon what kind of bar you find yourself in.

 

[glad2bhere]

I have had only limited contact with folks who do security work but one theme comes up over and over. Without exception every person who worked security in the entertainment field whether it was bars or concerts said the same thing---- 90% of the job was anticipating trouble before it actually came to anything. I know the reputation for bouncers is banging heads when people get rowdy, but thats not suported by the reports I've gotten. Its real easy for a place to get a rep and then business suffers. So I began to notice that when things got a little dicey, "coincidentally" there happened to be a couple of security people in the area. Turns out they had been watching the situation for some time before I noticed anything---but just hanging back. Comes time to do something it was usually more along the lines of "Hi: hows' your evening shaping up?" rather than "c'mere a$$-wipe, I wanna ta ya!" I think more things have been smoothed-over with comp tickets than any group of martial art techniques.FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[kwanjang]

I've had a number of "experiences" with multiple "partners", and the funny thing is that you often can't remember what you did in a real fight. It happens fast, and there simply is no time to think. You just react and hope that YOU will be the one leaving before the cops get there.

It is best to pick your hang out carefully to avoid trouble to begin with, size up the situation long before problems start, sit in a place that gives you the best options, stay away from women (especially other men's women) because they are the main reason why men get into it, stay away from the pool table or other games that get men heated up, and never go to the ground unless you have more buddies than the other guy.

Once you get into it, you should already have a pretty good idea on who his buddies are. Never expect a fight to be a one on one, and never discount the man's female companion. Girls can be meaner than a junk yard dog, and the fastest way to get yourself killed is to believe that the girl he is with is a nice lady. In a fight, there are no ladies, and you have no friends.

Personally, I've always gone for the farthest one from me first, because he least expected me. Use whatever is handy to get an "edge". Next, I try to keep moving fast from one to the next to avoid getting swamped, and finally I get the "H" out as fast as I can because luck WILL run out.

When it is serious, the one who can look death straight in the eye, keep his wits about him, and keep fighting while he is cut and badly bleeding (and you WILL bleed in a serious fight... knife or no knife) will often prevail in a one on one. All bets are off on a multiple on one.

I'm not sure if this is OK on teh forum, but I highly recommend folks read Alain Burrese's book on this subject. He has been there, done the job, and he is candid in his advise. My advise is that the odds of coming out of a real fight without some serious scars is worse than a Vegas slot, and I have the home made dimples in my cheek to prove it

 

[Bammx2]

Personally,I have found that if you train for sport fighting i.e "hold back for points"...thats pretty much what you will do in an actual fight.
I got jumped just before my BB test in Shotokan when I was 16...... got the snot kicked right outta me! Don't get me wrong,I scored great! But they scored a little better

Muscle memory plays a big role, especially when you are young and thats all you have ever done is train for points. The techniques themselves are good, you just need to get used to puting power behind them.
As for cross training....I swear by it! After being in entertainment security for many years;I learned you can't rely on just one thing to save you all the time.
1 on 1...grappeling is fine...but you do NOT want to go to the ground when there is multiples!
And on the korean soldiers....I met a man who was north korean special forces and defected to the south. We discussed the use of tae kwon do and the changes it has made. In his time,and still now in thier military, they trained for real. they trained with people commin at your head with a 4x4 and if you didn't get it right..........:erg:
Thier life was on the line when they went out....he,personally, had 98 successful "missions" just with his bare hands!
What was and is for tae kwon do have become 2 completely different things these days.....most people want that flash. But it doesn't mean you can't modify the power aspects and have the best of both worlds, points AND :erg:

 

[DragonFooter]

MMA? I thought he was just a Harley salesman...

This came from:http://celebrityjustice.warnerbros.com/news/0406/23b.html

"Standing over 6 feet and weighing in at 225 pounds, Chris Farney doesn't seem like anyone's victim, but a few months ago, the cage wrestler and Harley Davidson salesman, who told ABC's Jimmy Kimmel that he can bench press 445 pounds, received a slap from fitness guru Richard Simmons during an incident at the Phoenix airport."

*For TKD not working, see matches on bullshido.net

I lurk in those forums too, the videos doesn't show anything.. juz inexperienced idiots getting their asses whooped..But then how bout the video that showed a WTF sparer scores so many head shots against the Kyokushin fighter?

Strikes is better than grappling vs multiple opponents. IMHO, it's even more realistic than say, wrestling/grappling 3 people to the ground dude.... Unless you are talking bout movies or WWF, WWE, or WHO..LOL

 

[LIONHEART]

Hey all some really good opinions out there I must say, just to add my 2c...

firstly I do not know of any bodies street fighting experience or mma experiance or TKD experience(not blets or dans bt actual talent) so please do not be offended by anything I say as there are no personal judgements being made. I also do not knot how rough your areas.countries,or states are, personally being from Johannesburg South Africa trust me its pretty rough out there, I have limited experience in TKD but am learning (also do a lot of cross training) but have a fairly deep experience in Gracie Jujitsu and other MMA's and working Security for various functions, these are very very good... Sports! dont get me wrong they have my full respect as fighting styles but they are sports, so called no holds barred fighting is not the closest thing to a street fight but among the furthest, no throat, eye, joint strikes and small joint lock manipulation aswell as submissions remove it from being practical in a sd situation as well.

As Many people have mentioned while you are on the floor grappling your enemy has friends who will think nothing of introducing foot to face with you whilst you play around getting your enemy in a submission waiting for a bouncer. submissions were designed to be breaks but they are calmed the same as point strikes were intended to be "kill" strikes holding back and taming both makes them equally weak in a SD situation. Aside from multiple opponents you must worry about the environment itself, broken glass, ciggarette buts slippery liquids etc on the floors tables stools etc in the way, other people and WEAPONS you DO NOT want to be playing on the floor grappling coz your a MMA with a guy who is hiding a knife or have a broken bottle TRUST me.

This being said Im not saying TKD is the best for self defence either ESPECIALLY sport based TKD but traditional TKD(I practice ITF with some modifications and heavy stress on SD) has some fantastic principles particularly in multiple attacker situations and limited space is not a problem because training is emphasised on using your surroundings as well!

I definately agree on cross trainging and if you want my personal opinion on what is the most effective SD arts look towards the Filipino knife and stick fighting arts such as Eskrima, Eskrido and AMOK!, also the Russian Spetz Naz "system" is both practical and fantastic, never forget the effectiveness of a weapoon to back up your empty hand style PLUS many a time if a weapon is drawn with skill the sheer intimidation will be enough to prevent the fight.

hope I could help
Yours in MA LIONHEART.

 

[Littledragon]

I think the traditional Korean Tae Kwon Do can be used for self-defense, I still think knowing how to grapple and strike is better but traditional Korean Tae Kwon Do can be used sucesfully for self-defense. I don't think sport Tae Kwon Do can be used for self defense on the street because all the schools ever emphasize on is Tae Kwon Do for sport. Like I said the students and practicioners learn how to score a point while fighting somebdoy, on the street its everything goes. If you get tied up with a wana be tough guy brawler type and they get you on the ground what good is sport Tae Kwon Do then? At least traditional Tae Kwon Do emphasizes to kick low during self defense where it is illegal in sport and always emphasize to kick high or above the belt.

Just my opinion.

Tarek

 

[hedgehogey]

TO EVERYONE WHO SAYS YOU WILL GET KICKED BY THE DUDE'S FRIENDS WHILE ON THE GROUND: What is to prevent the EXACT SAME THING happening while standing up?! WHY ARE WE ASSUMING YOU WON'T GET HIT FROM BEHIND WHILE TRADING BLOWS?

Where is there any proof that it's better to be striking rather than grappling when you're jumped? WHY IS EVERYONE MAKING THIS ASSUMPTION? It's one of those pieces of "obvious" wisdom that everyone accepts without question. But we have no reason to believe it's true!

 

[Littledragon]

TO EVERYONE WHO SAYS YOU WILL GET KICKED BY THE DUDE'S FRIENDS WHILE ON THE GROUND: What is to prevent the EXACT SAME THING happening while standing up?! WHY ARE WE ASSUMING YOU WON'T GET HIT FROM BEHIND WHILE TRADING BLOWS?

Where is there any proof that it's better to be striking rather than grappling when you're jumped? WHY IS EVERYONE MAKING THIS ASSUMPTION? It's one of those pieces of "obvious" wisdom that everyone accepts without question. But we have no reason to believe it's true!

Since I am predominantlly a striker I prefer striking, aslo kicking is the man's most deadliest weapons. But if the kicks are ever caught, god forbid they are not you better know how to grapple..

 

[Marginal]

TO EVERYONE WHO SAYS YOU WILL GET KICKED BY THE DUDE'S FRIENDS WHILE ON THE GROUND: What is to prevent the EXACT SAME THING happening while standing up?! WHY ARE WE ASSUMING YOU WON'T GET HIT FROM BEHIND WHILE TRADING BLOWS?

'cause getting punched in the back doesn't especially matter. Once people start stomping on you, you're pretty much screwed.

Where is there any proof that it's better to be striking rather than grappling when you're jumped?

There's no proof that fights actually tend to go to the ground or that grappling is superior in those cases. MMA hasn't proven it, bad stats are the best anyone's ever mustered.

WHY IS EVERYONE MAKING THIS ASSUMPTION?

Why do you think anyone cares what you have to say? People do strange unexplainable things every day.

 

[kwanjang]

TO EVERYONE WHO SAYS YOU WILL GET KICKED BY THE DUDE'S FRIENDS WHILE ON THE GROUND: What is to prevent the EXACT SAME THING happening while standing up?! WHY ARE WE ASSUMING YOU WON'T GET HIT FROM BEHIND WHILE TRADING BLOWS?

Where is there any proof that it's better to be striking rather than grappling when you're jumped? WHY IS EVERYONE MAKING THIS ASSUMPTION? It's one of those pieces of "obvious" wisdom that everyone accepts without question. But we have no reason to believe it's true!

Just speaking from personal experience, and the suggestion is purely based on MY experiences (and lesser personal ability on the ground). For those who are more comfortable on the ground it may be different. I recall a fight between Ali and some wrestler (I believe in Japan). Ali won (and spent a considerable time in hospital recuperating from his win In this case, the wrestler apparently took to the ground, and did a number on Ali's legs. IMHO, he would have been a fool to stand up and fight on Ali's terms.

In a fight, you need to be alert for ANY situations, including the ones you mention. Problem for most people is that once you are down and your opponent is not, you are very vulnerable not only to others but your opponent as well. YOUR options (and mobility) are just not as good as if you were upright. For one thing, it is hard to run for the hills lying down. Don't get me wrong, I think grappling has real value, but IMHO, it is not a place the average guy should be.