The biggest problem in Wing Chun (and most other TCMA).

[Kung Fu Wang]

Blending in such a way where WC technique uses WC engine and then switching off into something else is not easy to do in a way that it flows.

My friend Su, Yu-Chang had created a Baji-mantis engine and called his system Baji-mantis.

IMO,

- Baji engine uses grenade principle.
- Praying mantis engine uses machine gun principle.
- Long fist engine uses rifle principle.

It's very difficult (if not impossible) to integrate into 1 engine.

 

[Alan0354]

According to a friend of mine (who is not a Wing Chun practitioner) the biggest problem that he sees in WC sparring on (heaven help us) YouTube, is a lack of real punching power. Sure, he says, "one-inch punch" demos and all that are fine and dandy, but if you can't land a really heavy punch in actual sparring, your opponent will quickly realize that you can't hurt him and tear you apart.

This guy also points out all the usual complaints about "lack of mobility", "lack of head movement" and lack of "regular sparring against resistant opponents" from other systems ...systems that do train with good resistance. But whatever the reason, he feels that this lack of punching power dooms most WC fighters to failure.

Now I have experienced some really powerful WC hitters. Emin Boztepe anyone? But how do they compare in their weight class against equally experienced strikers ... boxers, Muay Thai fighters, and today's MMA fighters? ...Especially in action, rather than in demos?

Sure, this is hardly a novel point of view, but you know, I think it's a legit question. Is our punching a problem? Any thoughts?

I learn some WC, not an expert. If you talk about how they punch just from the form, it's not that powerful. But I find the essence of how WC punch is actually good in certain sense. Bruce Lee always showed how he flex the wrist holding the fist vertically and use the knuckle of the baby finger to "nudge" at the target at the last moment to add the force. I find that really useful. It is not easy to coordinate the timing, takes a lot of practice to do it.

For me, I would not follow with the WC stand, I find it no mobile at all, boxing and MMA people are a lot more mobile. I use boxing hands, but I added the WC punch in the sense that in some cases, I actually punch vertically instead of the usual fist at horizontal position with palm down when contact. I hold my fist vertical and use the nudge motion of WC. It really takes time to master this, but if you can coordinate the feet, waist, shoulder and the nudge together, the punch can be very strong and good penetration into the heavy bag.

I am short, I anticipate most people I face will be a few inches taller than me. I have to learn to punch high. I am surprise most MA and even boxing always punch at shoulder level. That's too easy. Try punching high, it's a different world. For you tall guys, it's not important. But for short people like me, it's vital to know how to punch high.

This is where the vertical WC punch shines. If you punch high with normal horizontal fist palm down. The first point of contact is NOT the big knuckles, it's the second knuckles of the fingers. So when the second knuckles make contact first, it gives and serve as cushion that slow down the punch until the big knuckle make contact. You loss a lot of power because the second knuckle slow the punch down. try it and you will see punching high.

Now if you punch WC vertical fist, your first knuckle contact the face is the big knuckle of the baby finger. Together with the "nudge" motion, you generate a lot of power unhindered.

It's NOT easy to get the synchronization(I think the term is Shin-gu-chi or something) and put all the force together at one point, I've been practice for a while. When you get it right, you will feel it, the sound of the bag and the penetration of the bag will tell you that you are doing it right.

Then I pull back, not like WC that let the fist hang out there.

Well, this is my non expert experience. I put a lot of time punching like this and it works for me. I even punch 6X6 wood pole to toughen my baby knuckles to do this kind of punch.




Another question, I don't recall I've seen punching bags in WC place, they have the wooden dummy, they have small bags on the wall to practice the punch like "tapping" on it instead of actually punch. To me, that's NOT useful. I don't find the wooden dummy useful at all. People don't fight like their sticky hands. People move around with footwork, you really cannot "stick" their hands. It might be useful under the WC rule that both party stick their hands out, but how useful is in real fighting where the opponent moves around, jabbing and kicking at you. But I do swear by the WC punches adding into boxing jab and cross.

JMHO

 

[SuperSnakeCrane87]

If you start doing body and head movement it ruins your structure and takes some of your moves that are dependent on structure offline because they won't have anything to support them. Theres a time and a place for everything, you can either Tan a Hook like a WC practitioner, or duck it like a boxer...
how early did you spot it?
is it tight or looping?
what position are your hands currently in?

 

[drop bear]

If you start doing body and head movement it ruins your structure and takes some of your moves that are dependent on structure offline because they won't have anything to support them. Theres a time and a place for everything, you can either Tan a Hook like a WC practitioner, or duck it like a boxer...
how early did you spot it?
is it tight or looping?
what position are your hands currently in?

Striking takes structure though. And you can combine that and head movement.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Striking takes structure though. And you can combine that and head movement.

I wonder if WC techniques require specific (in this case, perhaps upright) structure. The core grappling in the aiki arts I'm familiar with does, and if you change structure, you also change what techniques are available. Some have variants that can be done without the aiki body mechanics (using mechanics similar to Judo), but many of them - as I know them - don't work without the aiki structure. It's one of the limitations in studying an aiki art (and I suspect one of the reasons NGA includes some Judo/Jujitsu in its core).

If that's the case, it may be that adding head bobbing hinders significant portions of WC.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

you can either Tan a Hook like a WC practitioner, or duck it like a boxer...

Do you imply that head leaning is against the WC principle? I don't like the idea that if I integrate something into my WC, my WC is no longer pure.

The term pure is the opposite of the term MMA.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I wonder if WC techniques require specific (in this case, perhaps upright) structure.

But the structure that when you play offense is different from the structure when you play defense.

When you try to throw me, if I collapse myself (no structure), you can't throw me. When I play "pull guard", my body has no structure.

 

[drop bear]

I wonder if WC techniques require specific (in this case, perhaps upright) structure. The core grappling in the aiki arts I'm familiar with does, and if you change structure, you also change what techniques are available. Some have variants that can be done without the aiki body mechanics (using mechanics similar to Judo), but many of them - as I know them - don't work without the aiki structure. It's one of the limitations in studying an aiki art (and I suspect one of the reasons NGA includes some Judo/Jujitsu in its core).

If that's the case, it may be that adding head bobbing hinders significant portions of WC.

They could also be doing the wrong head movement. Or trying to use it the wrong way.

Which is easy to do.

Again I bet you if we looked at lomenchenco. You could incorporate chun structure in to that.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

They could also be doing the wrong head movement. Or trying to use it the wrong way.

Which is easy to do.

Good thought.

Again I bet you if we looked at lomenchenco. You could incorporate chun structure in to that.

Another good thought. I don’t know WC at all well enough to know if that’s true, but it’d be a damned good place to start looking.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

But the structure that when you play offense is different from the structure when you play defense.

When you try to throw me, if I collapse myself (no structure), you can't throw me. When I play "pull guard", my body has no structure.

Yea. And from those points, you completely rule out some principles for yourself. If (and I don’t know if this is true) WC is analogous to the aiki structure portions of NGA, using that sort of response may take away a lot of possible responses for too long to be viable within the style.

 

[APL76]

Do you imply that head leaning is against the WC principle? I don't like the idea that if I integrate something into my WC, my WC is no longer pure.

The term pure is the opposite of the term MMA.

Depends on a) the type of Wing Chun you do, and b) how advanced you are at it. Head movement, slipping punches and so on is all a part of Sum Nung wing chun; but you only get it when you are ready, before that you are told not to do it. And in terms of structure, structure is nothing without movement, and often times it's when the movement stops that is the important part.

 

[SuperSnakeCrane87]

Striking takes structure though. And you can combine that and head movement.

For sure you can break structure and unbalance an opponent through striking.

I was just saying if you start using boxing footwork and body movement, some of the Wing Chun techniques/strategies go offline because you are structurally compromising yourself.
I kind of view it like over clocking a pc

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Yea. And from those points, you completely rule out some principles for yourself. If (and I don’t know if this is true) WC is analogous to the aiki structure portions of NGA, using that sort of response may take away a lot of possible responses for too long to be viable within the style.

The foot sweep is a good example. When you apply a left foot sweep, your upper body rotate to your left while your lower body rotate to your right.

We should not just look at body structure from a striker point of view. We should also look at it from a wrestler point of view.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

if you start using boxing footwork and body movement, some of the Wing Chun techniques/strategies go offline because you are structurally compromising yourself.

How does WC foot sweep any different from the general foot sweep guideline (upperbody twist into one direction while lower body twist into the opposite direction)?

 

[Oily Dragon]

Yikes! They will be coming to get you for your nutshell! Angry mob of WC proponents with pitchforks!

Basically.

 

[SifuBoza]

According to a friend of mine (who is not a Wing Chun practitioner) the biggest problem that he sees in WC sparring on (heaven help us) YouTube, is a lack of real punching power. Sure, he says, "one-inch punch" demos and all that are fine and dandy, but if you can't land a really heavy punch in actual sparring, your opponent will quickly realize that you can't hurt him and tear you apart.

This guy also points out all the usual complaints about "lack of mobility", "lack of head movement" and lack of "regular sparring against resistant opponents" from other systems ...systems that do train with good resistance. But whatever the reason, he feels that this lack of punching power dooms most WC fighters to failure.

Now I have experienced some really powerful WC hitters. Emin Boztepe anyone? But how do they compare in their weight class against equally experienced strikers ... boxers, Muay Thai fighters, and today's MMA fighters? ...Especially in action, rather than in demos?

Sure, this is hardly a novel point of view, but you know, I think it's a legit question. Is our punching a problem? Any thoughts?

Only in level 1 you hit with fist and learn wing chun direct punches..only in level 1. Pros are using open hands and other attacks..direct hits are only for school level 1 training

 

[geezer]

Only in level 1 you hit with fist and learn wing chun direct punches..only in level 1. Pros are using open hands and other attacks..direct hits are only for school level 1 training

So you are saying that WC strikes need to be delivered with an open hand to be powerful?

This seems counterintuitive to me. If you can generate good power, shouldn't you be able to use it with a fist, open-hand, or whatever tool/configuration you chose to strike with?

Also, you say "...direct hits are only for school level 1 training". Whether you use a fist or palm aren't you still striking "directly" ...as opposed to "indirectly" perhaps? I have no idea what you mean by that! Maybe you can clarify a bit.

 

[wckf92]

Only in level 1 you hit with fist and learn wing chun direct punches..only in level 1. Pros are using open hands and other attacks..direct hits are only for school level 1 training

You mention "level 1" three times. What is level 1?

 

[geezer]

You mention "level 1" three times. What is level 1?

I think he means to say "low level" but it appears that English is not his first language. His conclusion is ironic since many would hold the opposite point of view.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Only in level 1 you hit with fist and learn wing chun direct punches..only in level 1. Pros are using open hands and other attacks..direct hits are only for school level 1 training

If you're trying to say that chain punching someone is low level compared to dominating someone with your whole body, or the planet Earth, or a single finger, using the infinite combinations of Dragon, Snake, and Crane, think I agree.

One of my favorite Shaolin techniques is Shuka (Phoenix Eye Fist). Sure you can punch with it, if you use it in grappling it's torture.

Level 3 is tickling your friends with it. Don't attempt level 3 without proper training from an experienced instructor, you might lose a friend here or there.