Real Wing Chun Competitions

[Malleus]

On the topic of MMA:

The ring is a fantastic proving ground, for a multitude of reasons. Not least of all is the fact that it's a full on fight, with very little rules. Granted, you can't eyegouge, bite, fish-hook or headbutt, but such techniques are all easy to preform. I don't think an MMA fighter is going to be at a significant disadvantage 'on the street' because they can't practice them in the ring. Any nine year old can throw a headbutt.

As far as I'm concerned, what matters most in a real fight is unbridled aggression and power. Rapid, powerful strikes are how you knock someone out. There's no game playing or feeling the opponent out, just open up 100% and go for it. Gross motor skills don't suffer the same degredation as fine motor skills in a high-adrenaline situation. One-step sparring (like in my original style of TSD) may be pretty and impressive, but it's worse than useless in a real confrontation, because not only is it ineffective outside of a rigidly defined pattern, but it gives one the feeling of competency.

For a NHB fight, be it street or ring, aggression goes a long way, as does power. I think that unless you're fighting full-force occasionally as a form of pain inoculation, you're deluding yourself as to your abilities. I'm also adverse to "if x does this, counter with y and then z" thinking. It doesn't work. Perfect basic tools such as punches and kicks, and then learn how to use them effectively when you're getting pounded on. Everything else is academic.

As to wing chun, I don't know much about it suffice to say I've never seen it in a cage or on the street. It doesn't mean it's ineffective, but I can't help wondering if it has such strong moves to offer, why has it not become more popular in NHB contests? Or even why have the skills offered not been poached and incorporated into MMA training regimes? (Maybe they have, but I've never heard of them.)

 

[mook jong man]

As to wing chun, I don't know much about it suffice to say I've never seen it in a cage or on the street. It doesn't mean it's ineffective, but I can't help wondering if it has such strong moves to offer, why has it not become more popular in NHB contests? Or even why have the skills offered not been poached and incorporated into MMA training regimes? (Maybe they have, but I've never heard of them.)

My thoughts are

• The training can be very boring and repetitive.
• It doesn't look flashy or cool.
• Its not the flavour of the month.
• There are very few qualified people to teach it properly and actually know what they are doing.
• Silat is also a very effective art but you don't see that in the cage either , just because something is not seen in the cage doesn't mean it is not a valid fighting art.
• We kind of stand funny , we do short little girly punches and practice a strange drill where two grown men face each other with their arms making contact with the other mans arms and rotating them.
• It doesn't look very macho , and probably would not fit in with the heavily tattooed tough guy image that is so prevalent these days.

Most Wing Chun people are not interested in competition they have jobs and families and just want to do their two nights a week or whatever , learn some self defence , maybe lose a bit of weight and thats it.
They don't have neither the time nor the inclination to put in the hard work required for conditioning and the extra training that would be needed.

They are just everyday people women , kids , old people .
For the reasons I outlined above a lot of the fit young aggressive men do not tend to last too long in Wing Chun.

As I said the training can be very boring and repetitive at the lower levels ,at least until you start learning Chi sau and a lot of them would leave before then.

They would prefer to go and do the arts that are more mainstream and popular such as Bjj , Muay Thai and Boxing.
Try telling people that you do Wing Chun and they give you a blank look and say " Wasn't that a crappy 80's band ".

To be honest I don't give a rats **** what people think , let them think Wing Chun's a load of crap.
It's only going to make our job a whole lot easier when we are underestimated.

 

[Malleus]

My thoughts are

• The training can be very boring and repetitive.
• It doesn't look flashy or cool.
• Its not the flavour of the month.
• There are very few qualified people to teach it properly and actually know what they are doing.
• Silat is also a very effective art but you don't see that in the cage either , just because something is not seen in the cage doesn't mean it is not a valid fighting art.
• We kind of stand funny , we do short little girly punches and practice a strange drill where two grown men face each other with their arms making contact with the other mans arms and rotating them.
• It doesn't look very macho , and probably would not fit in with the heavily tattooed tough guy image that is so prevalent these days.

Most Wing Chun people are not interested in competition they have jobs and families and just want to do their two nights a week or whatever , learn some self defence , maybe lose a bit of weight and thats it.
They don't have neither the time nor the inclination to put in the hard work required for conditioning and the extra training that would be needed.

They are just everyday people women , kids , old people .
For the reasons I outlined above a lot of the fit young aggressive men do not tend to last too long in Wing Chun.

As I said the training can be very boring and repetitive at the lower levels ,at least until you start learning Chi sau and a lot of them would leave before then.

They would prefer to go and do the arts that are more mainstream and popular such as Bjj , Muay Thai and Boxing.
Try telling people that you do Wing Chun and they give you a blank look and say " Wasn't that a crappy 80's band ".

To be honest I don't give a rats **** what people think , let them think Wing Chun's a load of crap.
It's only going to make our job a whole lot easier when we are underestimated.

After writing my initial comment, I took it upon myself to look into wing chun on youtube. I was actually kinda impressed. The punching is weak (sweeping generalisation I know), but it's centreline attacks and rapidity are such that a hell of a lot of fighters from other styles don't seem to know what to do about it. It smothers them. I can't see them getting a knockout with it, but it's definately disorientating enough to look into further.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZ3-Hi-kMNo&feature=related (ugly I know, but the TKD guy has no clue what to do.)

(goes on for 4 rounds, with the kickboxer becoming gradually more dominant and eventually winning, but the first round at least is interesting.)

I can only assume that the lack of KO power is the reason that MMA guys don't use the centreline chain-punching, because it seems to be effective enough otherwise. Thoughts?

 

[dosk3n]

I have to disagree with you as there is a hell of a lot of power in a wing chun punch.

Myth busters demonstrated the force difference between the one inch punch and a full on hook and there is a big gap between them but both were very powerful, and this was the one inch punch. Make it a full range punch with turning and add in the wall bag training and you have a devistating blow. Coupled with 4 - 6 of them a second and there is your knock out power.

The difference is the type of knock out though. As far as I am aware there are 2 types of knock out and I am no expert so Im sure someone will correct me, but there is one type where there is a nerve close to the jaw that when knocked will shut down the brain and knock you out.

The second is when you get hit hard and your brain moves to the side of your head and you are heat again without giving the brain time to move back to position then that will knock you out.

With Wing Chun you have more of a chance to get the latter and most people dont go in another and from my opinion seem to be more worried about getting in and getting out as fast as they can instead of going in and putting in a lot of power.

Thats just my thoughts.

Cant check the videos as I am at work and youtube is blocked.

 

[geezer]

I can only assume that the lack of KO power is the reason that MMA guys don't use the centreline chain-punching, because it seems to be effective enough otherwise. Thoughts?

You can get KO power into a bare-knuckle centerline punch if you put your body behind it instead of just flailing away at 100 mph... but with gloves it's a lot harder, and you lose a lot of the "short-power" that is so important. So I'd agree that that may be one factor. Beyond that, I'd say that WC is works because it is a tightly integrated system. Each technique works in synergy with the rest, but would not work well out of context. You can't "cherry pick" WC techniques and expect them to work. And since the rules of the ring/cage effectively eliminate many parts of the WC system, what is left is an incomplete structure and not as effective. Arts that have evolved in the context of ring competition like boxing, muay thai, wrestling, and BJJ just seem to lend themselves better to this environment.

 

[Malleus]

.

Myth busters demonstrated the force difference between the one inch punch and a full on hook and there is a big gap between them but both were very powerful, and this was the one inch punch. Make it a full range punch with turning and add in the wall bag training and you have a devistating blow. Coupled with 4 - 6 of them a second and there is your knock out power.

Yes, I recall seeing 'Fight Science', which did a comparitive study between a variety of different styles. It wasn't particuarly scientific, given that they didn't weight match opponents, but Kung Fu punching came in at the weakest in terms of impact generated (Though the kung fu practitioner was also the smallest of the fighters being examined.) Nevertheless, and correct me if I'm wrong, but the sacrifice of the chain punching is that you cannot effectively throw your body into the punches: the recovery time isn't enough to allow the rapidity you guys show. Case in point, in the first video I provided, the TKD practitioner is covered in a wall of blows, but none of them even come close to knocking the guy down, or out. I know the counterargument is that the impact generated is still generally equal, because power = work/time, and if you if you can throw two wing chun punches in the time it takes to throw a cross, then the power level is equal. Unfortunately, it's impulse that counts more than power in a knockout. The terms are used rather interchangably.

A wing chun punch seems to have the advantage of coming from the centreline, where it is supported directly by the weight of the body. However, correct me if I'm wrong, there's little to no hip involvement, which ultimately limits power.

The difference is the type of knock out though. As far as I am aware there are 2 types of knock out and I am no expert so Im sure someone will correct me, but there is one type where there is a nerve close to the jaw that when knocked will shut down the brain and knock you out.

The second is when you get hit hard and your brain moves to the side of your head and you are heat again without giving the brain time to move back to position then that will knock you out.

That is my understanding of knockouts too: not only is there a mandibular nerve that is vulnerable, but the mandible itself can channel quite a lot of the impact straight into the brain. The second KO you mentioned is a concussion. As regards to chin knockouts, they still require a lot of power, and western boxers/ pro MMA fighters like to keep their chin tucked way down for just this reason. It's a trick everyone should follow, and I don't think it could hurt for a wing chun practitioner either.

You can't "cherry pick" WC techniques and expect them to work. And since the rules of the ring/cage effectively eliminate many parts of the WC system, what is left is an incomplete structure and not as effective.

Out of interest, what are the parts of the WC system that are banned from the ring?

 

[dungeonworks]

After writing my initial comment, I took it upon myself to look into wing chun on youtube. I was actually kinda impressed. The punching is weak (sweeping generalisation I know), but it's centreline attacks and rapidity are such that a hell of a lot of fighters from other styles don't seem to know what to do about it. It smothers them. I can't see them getting a knockout with it, but it's definately disorientating enough to look into further.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZ3-Hi-kMNo&feature=related (ugly I know, but the TKD guy has no clue what to do.)

(goes on for 4 rounds, with the kickboxer becoming gradually more dominant and eventually winning, but the first round at least is interesting.)

I can only assume that the lack of KO power is the reason that MMA guys don't use the centreline chain-punching, because it seems to be effective enough otherwise. Thoughts?

The Wing Chun punches do hurt....alot actually. If the first one doesn't, then the next 25 will, at least that is the general thinking on straight blasting as I know of it. One area I noticed great use of Wing Chun is ironically on the ground. Wing Chun striking works wonders from your back on the ground compared to the wind up and toss of boxing or other arts....just my opinion and what I have found working for myself.

As far as those videos, that's what I'm referring to. Look at the comments by other so called chunner's and the irony will present itself. I enjoyed seeing what the Russian Chunner's are doing on YouTube, (since they are a bit far from the USA LOL). They have little trouble against Muay Thai, Kickboxing, San Shou, or wrestling in the Kwoon matches they shown and yet still have people in the comments talking crap about how it is not Wing Chun because his pinky toe on his left foot was one micrometer out of place....ect.

 

[Malleus]

The Wing Chun punches do hurt....alot actually. If the first one doesn't, then the next 25 will, at least that is the general thinking on straight blasting as I know of it. One area I noticed great use of Wing Chun is ironically on the ground. Wing Chun striking works wonders from your back on the ground compared to the wind up and toss of boxing or other arts....just my opinion and what I have found working for myself.

Interesting. I stumbled across a thread over on Bullshido looking at Wing Chun in MMA, and there were quite a lot of people (for Bullshido) agreeing that it would have a good use in ground and pound. I assumed they meant from a dominant position, but your interpretation makes more sense. Interesting.

I looked up a few tutorials on chain-punching and gave it a go on the heavy-bag tonight. I can't generate much power in comparison to my boxing strikes, but I was very impressed with the sheer speed you can throw them out at. Power might come with training, though I don't think it'll ever supercede my boxing training. A very nice and possibly useful adjunct though.

As far as those videos, that's what I'm referring to. Look at the comments by other so called chunner's and the irony will present itself. I enjoyed seeing what the Russian Chunner's are doing on YouTube, (since they are a bit far from the USA LOL). They have little trouble against Muay Thai, Kickboxing, San Shou, or wrestling in the Kwoon matches they shown and yet still have people in the comments talking crap about how it is not Wing Chun because his pinky toe on his left foot was one micrometer out of place....ect.

Aye, well Youtube is definately one of the cesspools of the internet. You could be the greatest fighter of all times, simultaneously knocking out Gracie, Lee, Ali and Lesnar, and you'd still have the masses calling you a gaylord and challenging you fly to their country and try that stuff with them and see how it flies. They're also typically Navy Seals and taught Elvis Presley how to karate.

But must look into the Russians so, cheers.

 

[dungeonworks]

My thoughts are

• The training can be very boring and repetitive.
• It doesn't look flashy or cool.
• Its not the flavour of the month.
• There are very few qualified people to teach it properly and actually know what they are doing.
• Silat is also a very effective art but you don't see that in the cage either , just because something is not seen in the cage doesn't mean it is not a valid fighting art.
• We kind of stand funny , we do short little girly punches and practice a strange drill where two grown men face each other with their arms making contact with the other mans arms and rotating them.
• It doesn't look very macho , and probably would not fit in with the heavily tattooed tough guy image that is so prevalent these days.

Most Wing Chun people are not interested in competition they have jobs and families and just want to do their two nights a week or whatever , learn some self defence , maybe lose a bit of weight and thats it.
They don't have neither the time nor the inclination to put in the hard work required for conditioning and the extra training that would be needed.

They are just everyday people women , kids , old people .
For the reasons I outlined above a lot of the fit young aggressive men do not tend to last too long in Wing Chun.

As I said the training can be very boring and repetitive at the lower levels ,at least until you start learning Chi sau and a lot of them would leave before then.

They would prefer to go and do the arts that are more mainstream and popular such as Bjj , Muay Thai and Boxing.
Try telling people that you do Wing Chun and they give you a blank look and say " Wasn't that a crappy 80's band ".

To be honest I don't give a rats **** what people think , let them think Wing Chun's a load of crap.
It's only going to make our job a whole lot easier when we are underestimated.

Then why do they generally get their knickers in a bunch when the topic of Wing Chun (IN or VERSUS) MMA or other arts or Wing Chun in sport competition comes up or video of a claimed chunner getting beatdown on YouTube comes up? How can they gripe that Wing Chun is getting no respect from other arts that compete and have so much more exposure?? That is the part that confounds me. Many chunners here and on other sites want all this major respect for Wing Chun the style but without exposure, and the nitpicking of those using it in sport (ala some YouTube and Orr's guys or Grado's guys) only compounds and fuels this argument.

I guarantee that if the next UFC champion claims Wing Chun as his base style, man, the Chun world would ALL OVER IT with "See I told ya so's" after years of "It wasn't designed for competition!" arguments against, just like the Karate guys when Machida won his belt.

I have seen Silat in an ametuer MMA show in Goshen Indiana. He won but by BJJ choke as he cross trains several arts from what he said.

....and again, I am not arguing or saying Wing Chun is worthless or something less. Some of the guys I used to train with may likely whoop my a$$ with it and I would have no interest in it if I didn't see any value in it come out in my own sparring in JKD.

 

[mook jong man]

Then why do they generally get their knickers in a bunch when the topic of Wing Chun (IN or VERSUS) MMA or other arts or Wing Chun in sport competition comes up or video of a claimed chunner getting beatdown on YouTube comes up? How can they gripe that Wing Chun is getting no respect from other arts that compete and have so much more exposure?? That is the part that confounds me. Many chunners here and on other sites want all this major respect for Wing Chun the style but without exposure, and the nitpicking of those using it in sport (ala some YouTube and Orr's guys or Grado's guys) only compounds and fuels this argument.

I guarantee that if the next UFC champion claims Wing Chun as his base style, man, the Chun world would ALL OVER IT with "See I told ya so's" after years of "It wasn't designed for competition!" arguments against, just like the Karate guys when Machida won his belt.

I have seen Silat in an ametuer MMA show in Goshen Indiana. He won but by BJJ choke as he cross trains several arts from what he said.

....and again, I am not arguing or saying Wing Chun is worthless or something less. Some of the guys I used to train with may likely whoop my a$$ with it and I would have no interest in it if I didn't see any value in it come out in my own sparring in JKD.

Because the people who generally get their knickers in a knot are one eyed , just the same as with religions or politics.

You get people from the Wing Chun camp , usually " The my stance is so good I'll never get taken to the ground " brigade who have never trained in grappling and on the other hand you get some MMA people dismissing Wing Chun as rubbish because it is not seen in the octagon when they haven't even trained in it and their sole exposure to the system is via youtube.

Both sides of the argument are born from ignorance in my opinion.
I enjoy training in Wing Chun and grappling , to me they are just different tools that I will use according to the circumstances that I am in at the time.

The Wing Chun system was not designed with the goal of competition in mind , it is a martial art that was formulated to protect life and limb and promote good health well into old age.

Regardless of the exposure that Wing Chun gets or doesn't get or what martial art fads come and go now and into the future Wing Chun will always be a useful , logical and practical method for for self defence.

I do agree with you that if some Wing Chun based fighter does get up and start beating people in MMA then the " Chun world " will be all over it , but thats only human nature isn't.
Just the same as it is human nature for people to knock what they don't understand about Wing Chun.

 

[mook jong man]

Yes, I recall seeing 'Fight Science', which did a comparitive study between a variety of different styles. It wasn't particuarly scientific, given that they didn't weight match opponents, but Kung Fu punching came in at the weakest in terms of impact generated (Though the kung fu practitioner was also the smallest of the fighters being examined.) Nevertheless, and correct me if I'm wrong, but the sacrifice of the chain punching is that you cannot effectively throw your body into the punches: the recovery time isn't enough to allow the rapidity you guys show. Case in point, in the first video I provided, the TKD practitioner is covered in a wall of blows, but none of them even come close to knocking the guy down, or out. I know the counterargument is that the impact generated is still generally equal, because power = work/time, and if you if you can throw two wing chun punches in the time it takes to throw a cross, then the power level is equal. Unfortunately, it's impulse that counts more than power in a knockout. The terms are used rather interchangably.

A wing chun punch seems to have the advantage of coming from the centreline, where it is supported directly by the weight of the body. However, correct me if I'm wrong, there's little to no hip involvement, which ultimately limits power.



That is my understanding of knockouts too: not only is there a mandibular nerve that is vulnerable, but the mandible itself can channel quite a lot of the impact straight into the brain. The second KO you mentioned is a concussion. As regards to chin knockouts, they still require a lot of power, and western boxers/ pro MMA fighters like to keep their chin tucked way down for just this reason. It's a trick everyone should follow, and I don't think it could hurt for a wing chun practitioner either.



Out of interest, what are the parts of the WC system that are banned from the ring?

The power of the punch comes from moving your body forward as a unified mass in synchronization with your arm , the faster you move your body forward the more powerful the punch.

The Wing Chun punch accelerates to the target and just before impact the hand closes which accelerates the strike even more and gives a penetrating type of force.

In the case of multiple strikes like chain punching the first punch will hit the head and cause trauma to the brain and as somebody already said the brain has no time to recover before the next punch comes in thus causing unconsciousness .

The power of the punches also come from the structure of the stance and depending on which lineage you are from internal energy may also be involved.

This method is different to the knockout caused by the centrifugal forces which usually act on someones head when they are hit by boxers hooks to the jaw.

To think of the Wing Chun punches as just a mere tool to bludgeon the opponent into submission is to sell the technique and the system short.

The vertical position of the fist and the knuckles used to strike with are in good skeletal alignment with the forearm .

The centreline chain punches provide a type of shield to the user as the opponent must deviate and come around them to attack.

The elbow down position affords very good protection to the ribcage as the punch is only out for a fraction of a second then back in positon again to protect.

The punches are economical in movement and at anytime they can be interrupted and converted into more defensive hand structures.

The vertical position of the fist and elbows in and down mean that we can use the bottom of the forearms to gain tactile information from the opponents arms and redirect his force.

This way of punching used in the correct range also has a built in trapping effect on the opponents arms as the Wing Chun mans forearms are continually sawed back and forth over the opponents arms as he is being hit and controlled.

From the chain punching position it is easy to latch or cutdown on the opponents arms to remove any attempt by him to block or protect himself .

To have your chin down would compromise the Wing Chun structure , and just make it easier for someone to pull your head and ultimately your body down.

The arms are used to defend the upper body in Wing Chun against hand strikes.
The posture must be kept upright , spine , head and neck in alignment without this a lot of concepts and principles in Wing Chun will fail.

Just like a plastic ruler on its end when you press on it , its quite strong if it is kept straight , but once it is allowed to bend then structural integrity is lost.
Also if your lineage is one that tries to cultivate " Nim Lik "or Wing Chun "Thought force" then proper alignment of the vertebrae up to the neck and head is a huge must.

I don't know what Wing Chun techniques would be banned from the ring , probably the usual stuff like attacking the eyes , the throat , the groin.

But having gloves on would seriously limit the effect of the Wing Chun punches , and wearing no shoes wouldn't give a low heel kick to the shin or knee quite the same stopping power as it would on the street with shoes on.

Also I wouldn't like to see somebody who's trained in Wing Chun for a long time use a Bil Gee elbow on someone in the ring , that elbow strike can generate immense power on a small surface area.
My late Sifu put a bouncer in hospital with a Bil Gee elbow strike that caved the guys sternum in.


In my opinion it is the incredible power that can be generated in some of the techniques , when you have been on the receiving end of them from someone who is a genuine master then you would not like to see them used on a human being unless it was absolutely the last resort.

Probably in the future you will see some type of modified Wing Chun used in sport combat events but as with all the other arts they will also have training in a ground based system as well.

 

[KamonGuy2]

Whilst I hate to reference other martial artists other than myself, I would mention again that I know of at least two chunners who have active involvement in the MMA world. Alan Orr competes in MMA events and uses pretty much only wing chun and catch wrestling. Kevin Chan (my instructor) is very well known in the fight world and with a lot of professional cage fighters. He will testify everytime, the effectiveness of a wing chun punch. Certainly, if you are a big guy, then things like hooks and boxing punches will be suited for you. What people forget is that there are little guys out there who dont have the luxury of being put against an opponent who is their own bodyweight. I spar a lot, and being a massive guy means that smaller guys struggle. I often have to back off a little, because soem people are literally a third of my bodyweight and hitting them even half power would seriously hurt them. However, in a lot of wing chun techniques, size does not matter as much. Obviously big people are always a little harder to overpower as there is more mass to control

My point is that if you put a heavyweight UFC guy with a welterweight UFC guy, who do you think would win? Honestly?

Dungeonworks - people get their knickers in a twist in the wing chun world when people insist that the cage is the ONLY proving ground. I have fought in tournaments (when I did my karate knockdown two years ago I was a blue belt facing black belts), I have won self defence competitions

http://www.kamonwingchun.co.uk/FeatureSouthEastMartialArtsFestival.asp

and yet people still whinge about 'evidence'. There are plenty of exchunners who compete in the MMA world but point blank refuse to acknowledge it. Even Chuck Liddell once mentioned how he enjoyed the traditional styles and found uses for each style - including wing chun. Mike Bispin was at SENO two years ago and was talking about wing chun and how he had admired it

So my gripe comes with people who insist that cage and competition environment is the only way to test your art. I dont agree.

 

[KamonGuy2]

So you, compete/competed in various venues of martial sport, and fought in the street....and you cross train/trained in other styles. How many chunners here lift their nose at the thought of cross training? How many Chunners here lift their noses and critique everything without tasting it themselves or bash the videos of others work. How many Chunner's here have EVERY EXCUSE IN THE BOOK as to why Chunner's do not compete using the almighty "It's too deadly for sport!" and "It was made for the Streets!" excuses.

....and then the aforementioned Chunner's wonder why Wing Chun is not as respected like a Muay Thai or MMA among the general Martial Arts population and get all persnickety when somebody asks for some form of validity or some video of it in action. The reason is, it is not as SEEN and as with most self defense styles, looks nowheres near as fluid and pretty as it is in ChiSau or forms training. Same with Karate, Judo, TKD, Jiujitsu of any flavor....ect. You have been in fights Kamon Guy, you know what I am saying. The moves and muscle memory are there on a smaller level, but things still go frantic when the adrenaline starts pumping or you are attacked while off guard from behind or the side or other awkward angle...ect. In otherwords, I bet Chuck Norris don't fight like, nor as pretty as Cordell Walker does on Walker Texas Ranger! LOL

For the record, I am not dogging the art on Wing Chun, Wing Tsun, Ving Tsun (or anyother spelling of the style) in any way...just the blinder wearing types that cannot see past what their sifu says....and that goes for ANY art. I have conversed with a lot of Hapkido people of the same closed minded blinder wearing tunnel vision ilk as well.

Sorry I just read this....
Yeah i know what you are saying Dungeonworks. There are chunners who are a bit too blinded by wing chun to see anything else. I am a strong advocate of cross training and seeing what else is out there. Even if you are a wing chun 'purist' you can still see and appreciate other styles and the uses of them

I trained a few years ago with Choi Kwang Do and found it to be the worst organisation I had ever come across in 23 years of training. Yet there is still a lot of cardio training they did which was beneficial. What annoyed me the most is that I went to one of their 24 hour open training halls and asked if they allowed anyone in to train there (people from other styles). Instead of saying 'no' and letting it be, the owner turned his nose up and said 'there is no other style other than CKD'. Its one of the reasons why I left

I love competitions, but I get annoyed when people say that they need 'evidence' of it working. I have never seen any one style working in the cage, and I have never seen MMA working in the street. Does it mean they are useless? No

Wing chun is a good art. It has a lot of uses. If it didnt, I wouldnt train in it! Different arts are made for different things. Tae Kwon Do is pretty terrible close quarters. It doesnt make it rubbish. I do not rate wing chun on the ground at all. Does that mean the whole art is rubbish? No

There are ways of bringing wing chun into the cage, but it was never really designed for sport purposes. It is definately not 'too deadly' for th cage. There are numerous reasons why wing chun wouldnt be great in the cage and the main one being that the natural flow would be disrupted by the elimiation of certain techniques. Looking at moves such as the elbow, knife hand strike, palm strike, finger strikes, stamp kicks, etc, you would be hard pressed to see how a chunner could use his natural attacks in the cage. I use things like fut sao, muen guen sao to elbow quite a lot, but it would be banned in those sort of competitions

I know it sounds like whining but it would be like asking a boxer to enter the cage using only jabs. Sure he could do it, but he wouldnt be too successful

Peace out

 

[mook jong man]

Try walking around the streets of Sydney on a Friday or Saturday night at 2 am and you'll find plenty of opportunities to test your art.

Except it won't be on a nice mat , there won't be adequate lighting , there will be no referee to stop it , you will probably have someone else with you that you have to protect ie (wife or girlfriend) , there will be no rules , weapons may or may not be involved and if your extremely lucky the attacker maybe the same size as you and be on his own.

But don't count on that its more likely to be a gang of Tongans /Samoans who are all built like brick outhouses or just as dangerous the gangs of Aboriginals who are likely to have done a bit of boxing , and last but not least the Lebanese gangs who have a penchant for carrying knives or hand guns.

So until martial athletes have to face those types of people in the Octagon under no rules with multiple attackers then it is not reality but an artificial construct , a sport.

The true reality is normal people , not elite athletes with million dollar sponsorships are getting attacked by these gutless thugs in the streets everyday and in my opinion you need a lightning fast , aggressive , low kicking style to cope with multiple attackers , that along with good positioning strategy and I reckon Wing Chun fits the bill.

 

[dungeonworks]

Try walking around the streets of Sydney on a Friday or Saturday night at 2 am and you'll find plenty of opportunities to test your art.

Brother please, I grew up in and around Detroit, MI and live just outside (and visit frequently) the city of Flint, MI. I could show you a million different Redneck bars you'd get the same at 2am (our bar closing time). You're preaching to the choir on how bad a city can be! :uhyeah: :whip1: I bet my suburban block or any country mile around here has more guns than the whole city of Sydney (We like our guns here...criminals and non criminals). Around here, you bring a knife to a gunfight or rely just on Martial Arts of any alone, you are gonna lose. It is very common and easier than ever to get a concealed carry permit (criminals don't usually care or bother because they are...well, CRIMINALS! LOL). In Michigan, it is technically legal for open carry, but the cops will hassle you to no end and it is not worth the hassle unless you have your own law degree and are certified with the BAR assn. or have the cash to fight things in court. Heck, even most small towns anywhere have places you do not go unless you are looking for trouble.

So until martial athletes have to face those types of people in the Octagon under no rules with multiple attackers then it is not reality but an artificial construct , a sport.

Actually MJM, there was a story not long ago of an MMA fighter that just fought after recovering from gunshot wounds after thwarting a failed robbery attempt...failed because he fought back good enough before they shot and ran. Guy Metzger thwarted a home invasion a few years back. Ken Shamrock has been in and out of detention halls and lived on the streets before being adopted by Bob Shamrock. I would be willing to bet that the Nogueira's, (Thiago, Anderson, Wanderlei...ect) Silva's, and many other Brazillian figters came from nastier streets than most of us know (Curitaba and Rio De Jeniro). The newer crop of UK fighters, some come from tough streets in England. A LOT MORE are war veterans (some from elite military units), some with purple hearts (notes war related injury) and other medals and commendations. So where have the Wing Chunner's faced more of these situations than the rest of the martial arts world and therefore more competent and able to survive killer Tongan, Lebanese slasher, and Aboriginal boxing gangs? We have the same thing in ANY major US city with poor and destitute areas and even in some well to do small towns....I won't even mention the southern border states growing issues with WELL ARMED and WELL ORGANIZED Mexican and Columbian drug cartels....but I'd wager a good coin that there are far Far FAR more firearms in these gang's hands over here than anyother country in the world.

The true reality is normal people , not elite athletes with million dollar sponsorships are getting attacked by these gutless thugs in the streets everyday and in my opinion you need a lightning fast , aggressive , low kicking style to cope with multiple attackers , that along with good positioning strategy and I reckon Wing Chun fits the bill.

I can agree with this statement and add that so will Krav Maga and good training in most of the Fillipino and Indonesian styles....namely Kali and Silat, among other styles can accomplish the same thing. The even TRUER reality of this is that it has been going on since the first time one man desiring what another man has...and that predates (and likely SPAWNED) the martial arts. Curious though, why would you discount a man's self defense skills because of "million dollar sponsorships"? Over here in the USA, MOST athletes in our major sports (especially boxing) come from poor and crime riddled areas. Is it different in Oz?

 

[dungeonworks]

Sorry I just read this....
Yeah i know what you are saying Dungeonworks. There are chunners who are a bit too blinded by wing chun to see anything else. I am a strong advocate of cross training and seeing what else is out there. Even if you are a wing chun 'purist' you can still see and appreciate other styles and the uses of them

I trained a few years ago with Choi Kwang Do and found it to be the worst organisation I had ever come across in 23 years of training. Yet there is still a lot of cardio training they did which was beneficial. What annoyed me the most is that I went to one of their 24 hour open training halls and asked if they allowed anyone in to train there (people from other styles). Instead of saying 'no' and letting it be, the owner turned his nose up and said 'there is no other style other than CKD'. Its one of the reasons why I left

I love competitions, but I get annoyed when people say that they need 'evidence' of it working. I have never seen any one style working in the cage, and I have never seen MMA working in the street. Does it mean they are useless? No

Wing chun is a good art. It has a lot of uses. If it didnt, I wouldnt train in it! Different arts are made for different things. Tae Kwon Do is pretty terrible close quarters. It doesnt make it rubbish. I do not rate wing chun on the ground at all. Does that mean the whole art is rubbish? No

There are ways of bringing wing chun into the cage, but it was never really designed for sport purposes. It is definately not 'too deadly' for th cage. There are numerous reasons why wing chun wouldnt be great in the cage and the main one being that the natural flow would be disrupted by the elimiation of certain techniques. Looking at moves such as the elbow, knife hand strike, palm strike, finger strikes, stamp kicks, etc, you would be hard pressed to see how a chunner could use his natural attacks in the cage. I use things like fut sao, muen guen sao to elbow quite a lot, but it would be banned in those sort of competitions

I know it sounds like whining but it would be like asking a boxer to enter the cage using only jabs. Sure he could do it, but he wouldnt be too successful

Peace out

Actually, in the early UFC's Royce Gracie used one style successfully against larger opponents! But I do see what you are saying. I still don't get why Wing Chun is not looked at for ground striking though. Just the basic punching alone works nearly like magic from on your back, side control, top control...wherever. In my Wing Chun Novice opinion, ChiSau comes into play here more than anyother spot. I know I have been hung to dry for the mear mention of using BJJ as a supplement to Wing Chun, but man, roll for five minutes with even light contact striking and it becomes strikingly evident!

A few posts ago, you mentioned some UFC guys talking about traditional martial arts. The majority of them came from these arts. Liddell trained under and has his black belt in Koei-Kan-Karate-Do (the same style I trained in and consider my base) before meeting and training with Hawaiin Kempo expert John Hackleman. Bisping trained Tae Kwon Do I believe as did David Louaso, Stephen Bonnar, and others. Sammy Barek claims Wing Chun lineage but says he uses little of it in the cage. Dan Hardy is a Shaolin Kung Fu stylist originally and even lived and trained at some Chinese Temple for a few months with the monks. Machida is Shotokan Karate as Im sure you know, Vitor Belfort has been training Shotokan for the last few years and you can see it in his movement and guard. The list goes on....but the common denominator is that many elements and techniques of ALL styles represented in MMA have been removed to suit the rules. Some styles have more than can be used, but know that even Karate and TKD (not to minimize them) have knee, downed opponent, eyeball, and throat strikes in the CQC techniques.

MMA is MIXED MARTIAL ARTS for a reason because NO STYLE alone fits the rule set. Gone are the first 5 UFC's where it was style vs style match-ups and no one pure style is presently dominating nor are they even represented anymore....and I do miss the style vs style match-ups dearly! It was topic for debate many of late nights as a kid growing up!

 

[mook jong man]

Brother please, I grew up in and around Detroit, MI and live just outside (and visit frequently) the city of Flint, MI. I could show you a million different Redneck bars you'd get the same at 2am (our bar closing time). You're preaching to the choir on how bad a city can be! :uhyeah: :whip1: I bet my suburban block or any country mile around here has more guns than the whole city of Sydney (We like our guns here...criminals and non criminals). Around here, you bring a knife to a gunfight or rely just on Martial Arts of any alone, you are gonna lose. It is very common and easier than ever to get a concealed carry permit (criminals don't usually care or bother because they are...well, CRIMINALS! LOL). In Michigan, it is technically legal for open carry, but the cops will hassle you to no end and it is not worth the hassle unless you have your own law degree and are certified with the BAR assn. or have the cash to fight things in court. Heck, even most small towns anywhere have places you do not go unless you are looking for trouble.

Actually MJM, there was a story not long ago of an MMA fighter that just fought after recovering from gunshot wounds after thwarting a failed robbery attempt...failed because he fought back good enough before they shot and ran. Guy Metzger thwarted a home invasion a few years back. Ken Shamrock has been in and out of detention halls and lived on the streets before being adopted by Bob Shamrock. I would be willing to bet that the Nogueira's, (Thiago, Anderson, Wanderlei...ect) Silva's, and many other Brazillian figters came from nastier streets than most of us know (Curitaba and Rio De Jeniro). The newer crop of UK fighters, some come from tough streets in England. A LOT MORE are war veterans (some from elite military units), some with purple hearts (notes war related injury) and other medals and commendations. So where have the Wing Chunner's faced more of these situations than the rest of the martial arts world and therefore more competent and able to survive killer Tongan, Lebanese slasher, and Aboriginal boxing gangs? We have the same thing in ANY major US city with poor and destitute areas and even in some well to do small towns....I won't even mention the southern border states growing issues with WELL ARMED and WELL ORGANIZED Mexican and Columbian drug cartels....but I'd wager a good coin that there are far Far FAR more firearms in these gang's hands over here than anyother country in the world.


I can agree with this statement and add that so will Krav Maga and good training in most of the Fillipino and Indonesian styles....namely Kali and Silat, among other styles can accomplish the same thing. The even TRUER reality of this is that it has been going on since the first time one man desiring what another man has...and that predates (and likely SPAWNED) the martial arts. Curious though, why would you discount a man's self defense skills because of "million dollar sponsorships"? Over here in the USA, MOST athletes in our major sports (especially boxing) come from poor and crime riddled areas. Is it different in Oz?

You have made some very valid points and I won't get into a debating war as to whether what country has the most scumbags per capita.
Scumbags are scumbags no matter the nationality.

The point I was ineloquently trying to make is that you need an art such as Wing Chun with its practical , economical , relatively easy to do movements for the people that are not particularly athletic , maybe elderly , might be of small build , might have a disability etc etc.

These type of people need an equaliser like Wing Chun to give them a fighting chance to survive a self defense situation , they can't all go and train with Ken Shamrock at the Lions Den.

 

[dungeonworks]

You have made some very valid points and I won't get into a debating war as to whether what country has the most scumbags per capita.
Scumbags are scumbags no matter the nationality.

The point I was ineloquently trying to make is that you need an art such as Wing Chun with its practical , economical , relatively easy to do movements for the people that are not particularly athletic , maybe elderly , might be of small build , might have a disability etc etc.

These type of people need an equaliser like Wing Chun to give them a fighting chance to survive a self defense situation , they can't all go and train with Ken Shamrock at the Lions Den.

"The Hood" is "The Hood", no matter the country, state/province, county, parrish, city, town, or village....and I totally agree scumbags aren't a monopoly just here in the USA.

I wish Oz was closer. I'd love to share a pint and talk Wing Chun with you so you could really see that I am not being negative or degrading. Intention is HARD to imply over internet boards and I do type a lot (babble??? ) for fear of being misunderstood, but often times my mind is faster than my mouth which is LIGHT YEARS ahead of my typing fingers! :uhyeah:

 

[mook jong man]

"The Hood" is "The Hood", no matter the country, state/province, county, parrish, city, town, or village....and I totally agree scumbags aren't a monopoly just here in the USA.

I wish Oz was closer. I'd love to share a pint and talk Wing Chun with you so you could really see that I am not being negative or degrading. Intention is HARD to imply over internet boards and I do type a lot (babble??? ) for fear of being misunderstood, but often times my mind is faster than my mouth which is LIGHT YEARS ahead of my typing fingers! :uhyeah:

No worries mate , I can see your just hungry for info on good Wing Chun.

But that is the Brits that drink from pints , over here in Australia we drink beer in a glass called a schooner or a smaller glass called a middy.

But since I gave up alcohol about 3 years ago you would have to settle for me buying you a beer and I would have an orange juice like a big girly man.

 

[dungeonworks]

No worries mate , I can see your just hungry for info on good Wing Chun.

But that is the Brits that drink from pints , over here in Australia we drink beer in a glass called a schooner or a smaller glass called a middy.

But since I gave up alcohol about 3 years ago you would have to settle for me buying you a beer and I would have an orange juice like a big girly man.

See what I get for trying to be Mr. International??? Since you don't drink alcohol, maybe I could turn you on to a Soda (we call soda "Pop" here in Michigan, USA) made here in Michigan called Vernors then. They even make diet if you don't want the calories of regular, but man it is good for a beer substitute! You could bring that spread you Aussie's put on toast....I forget the name but an Aussie fellow Airbrush Artist told be about it and it is a staple I guess in the Aussie diet.

....but if OJ is what you want, my Mum lives in Florida! Can't get better OJ here in the states than some good ol' Florida OJ! :ultracool

(....and this written from a guy with a bottle of Smithwick's Irish Ale in his coolie! )