Difficulties training in different types of Wing Chun.

[APL76]

Yeah, I forgot to finish with my thought that Wing Chun goes about it with more subtlety from the beginning, but I suspect it is still in there, in some form of other. Different strokes.

Pin Choi, Dok Leung Choi and Jin Choi in Sum Nung wing chun all follow the principles that you mentioned, extend the punch completely, its exaggerated, for over training, all lining up coordination of the entire body. Then, once you have it, it is generally applied in only a fraction of the extension that's found in the training drills. Sounds like the same principle.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

So looking to extend the range of the punch as far as you can? Maybe the distance then accounts for the difference in power generation?

The concept of "maximum reach" exist in many CMA systems. Long range reach is the DNA of the long fist system.

In one sparring, I was 12 feet away from my opponent. My opponent didn't think I could reach him.

- I jump up with my left foot.
- land on my right foot.
- I then move my left foot behind my right foot (stealing step).
- I lean my upper body to my right, and
- my right fist landed on my opponent's face.

The jumping footwork, stealing step, body leaning, and leading arm and back shoulder make a straight line all contributed my distance covering.

In weapon fight, if your sword is 1 inch longer than your opponent's sword, you will have 1 inch advantage.

 

[Nc1992]

I train the Tibetan White Crane method, and our power generation is similar to what KFW describes, although I suspect is it even longer. However, this exaggeration of movement is meant to be a training methodology that helps ingrain that full body connection into an automatic technique. Once you have developed that skill, it does not need to be so exaggerated, and full-body connection can be successful at short range and with much more subtle movements, which is more practical in actual combat use.

So I hold that the method is highly functional at any range. The method is not meant to be range-specific or limited to one range or another, or even optimal at one particular range. It can be used anywhere, with anything.

Yeah, I think the range and power generation are not necessarily connected. Look at how you describe your punch there, then look at Pin Choi from Sum Nung style wing chun.

That makes good sense on the question of ranges, though it seems like there is a lot that could be discussed on the topic of range. From that exchange though it sounds then like there is a connection of some kind with power generation in Sum Nung Wing Chun and the Long Fist and Tibetan White Crane styles.

So now my obvious next question is where (if at all) does YM Wing Chun fit into the equation.


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[APL76]

That makes good sense on the question of ranges, though it seems like there is a lot that could be discussed on the topic of range. From that exchange though it sounds then like there is a connection of some kind with power generation in Sum Nung Wing Chun and the Long Fist and Tibetan White Crane styles.

So now my obvious next question is where (if at all) does YM Wing Chun fit into the equation.


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Not necessarily. The principle of overtraining (making the movement bigger than its likely to be used to train power generation and coordination sounds like the same principal. However the way power is generated may not be the same (it might, I don't know the other styles but I suspect it would be different).

In the Yip Man style I do I haven't seen anything quite like the stuff in the Guangzhou style,

 

[Flying Crane]

Not necessarily. The principle of overtraining (making the movement bigger than its likely to be used to train power generation and coordination sounds like the same principal. However the way power is generated may not be the same (it might, I don't know the other styles but I suspect it would be different).

In the Yip Man style I do I haven't seen anything quite like the stuff in the Guangzhou style,

Agreed. The principle may be the same, but how it physically manifests within the training methods of different systems could be very different. I believe this is one of the primary differences that distinguishes one system from another. It is in how those principles are put to work within the methodology.

This is also why I caution people that some systems may not mix well. They may follow the same principles, but if the manifestation is different, then they have a completely different foundation. That does not mix.

 

[Nc1992]

Not necessarily. The principle of overtraining (making the movement bigger than its likely to be used to train power generation and coordination sounds like the same principal. However the way power is generated may not be the same (it might, I don't know the other styles but I suspect it would be different).

Agreed. The principle may be the same, but how it physically manifests within the training methods of different systems could be very different. I believe this is one of the primary differences that distinguishes one system from another. It is in how those principles are put to work within the methodology.

This is also why I caution people that some systems may not mix well. They may follow the same principles, but if the manifestation is different, then they have a completely different foundation. That does not mix.

Both good points, I did not think of that. Still would be an interesting experiment comparing for someone with the time or resources.




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[Flying Crane]

One phrase my first Sifu would say: be big in order to become small.

I think this is a perfect example. Learn to generate power with exaggerated movements (big) and then you can generate the same power without the exaggeration (become small).

 

[APL76]

Both good points, I did not think of that. Still would be an interesting experiment comparing for someone with the time or resources.




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I have seen what Flying Crane is talking about happen a number of times. One on of the most striking examples is one of the guys I used to train with years ago, he had done wing chun for about 4-5 years, training with my Sifu. He started about a year and a half after me I guess. He was awesome at it. Had the right body type, very soft force (just the kind we need for wing chun, how we do it anyway), very good sensitivity, extremely fast with his hands, and on his feet with a great centreline.

What brought him to wing chun however was watching Once Upon a Time in China. He was happy to do wing chun until one of Jet Li's instructors moved to the Canberra region and started teaching Wu Shu and Tai Chi. He decided that he was going to do both Wing Chun and Wu Shu. My Sifu warned him that he would have to chose one or the other if he wanted to do either well, as the way they generate power would be entirely different. He tried to do both for a while and his wing chun detreated so fast it was actually quite surprising. The two were just incompatible. In the end he ended up sticking with the Wu Shu.

 

[Nc1992]

I have seen what Flying Crane is talking about happen a number of times. One on of the most striking examples is one of the guys I used to train with years ago, he had done wing chun for about 4-5 years, training with my Sifu. He started about a year and a half after me I guess. He was awesome at it. Had the right body type, very soft force (just the kind we need for wing chun, how we do it anyway), very good sensitivity, extremely fast with his hands, and on his feet with a great centreline.

What brought him to wing chun however was watching Once Upon a Time in China. He was happy to do wing chun until one of Jet Li's instructors moved to the Canberra region and started teaching Wu Shu and Tai Chi. He decided that he was going to do both Wing Chun and Wu Shu. My Sifu warned him that he would have to chose one or the other if he wanted to do either well, as the way they generate power would be entirely different. He tried to do both for a while and his wing chun detreated so fast it was actually quite surprising. The two were just incompatible. In the end he ended up sticking with the Wu Shu.

Oh I can imagine, very interesting.

Although I should clarify when I said it would be interesting to experiment my thought was looking at separate individuals training in each style and comparing their approaches to power generation


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[Flying Crane]

For a time I was training Tracy family kenpo (Chow/Parker lineage Hawaiian kenpo) at the same time I was training White Crane. In kenpo, we were practicing punches in a square horse, punching to the front with the shoulders very square.

My White Crane would creep in and I would begin to rotate. My kenpo teachers were constantly telling my to stop over-rotating, keep the shoulders square.

In my White Crane classes, my kenpo would creep in and I would not rotate enough. Sifu kept telling me, turn more!

I was doing a hybrid that was not correct for either method. I realized I needed to choose one or the other, or else neither would be very good. I was leaning toward Crane, and one day in kenpo class as we practiced in a square horse with shoulders squared, I remember saying to myself, “this is destroying my White Crane.”

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

one day in kenpo class as we practiced in a square horse with shoulders squared, I remember saying to myself, “this is destroying my White Crane.”

When I cross trained the Bagua system, during the circle walking, I need to move my leading leg first. This contradict to my Shuai Chiao circle running training that I always move my back leg first. The Bagua circle walking also violate the basic MA guideline, never cross your legs in front of your opponent.

Some MA systems are not only different. They contradict to each other.

 

[hunschuld]

Excuse the Covid boredom and the attempt to ad to what seems a dead thread. From my training in Lo Kwai's wing chun Everyone seems to be talking about smaller parts of a larger whole. 2 Gings in Wing Chun, Dog shakes water from white crane. The long range ging using hips and waist rotation and Snake Strikes ging close range narrow body fast energy transfer and requires the use of ankles ,bent knees, hips,spine to transfer power to hands. Hip placement is critical and shoulders and elbows must not come out of their sockets. Yip Chun elbow position motion is just a crude way of focusing on the elbow portion of the chain for example. All require proper internal body usage. Joint connectivity ,small tight forward circles, absorbing and redirecting incoming energy etc. I have found many wing chun families have looked for ways to teach these things in small digestible pieces unfortunately many got so caught up in focusing on a part they never again put the whole back together. Also the original wing chun that we practice is a standup grappling art . The goal being to drive through and via sweep,trip,throw put the opponent on the ground. This focus provides a different outlook on power generation and usage than primarily focusing on striking.

 

[geezer]

... the original wing chun that we practice is a standup grappling art . The goal being to drive through and via sweep,trip,throw put the opponent on the ground. This focus provides a different outlook on power generation and usage than primarily focusing on striking.

I find this intriguing. I've felt that the WC I see demonstrated often misses this. Personally, the most satisfying exchanges will close-in from kicking, to punching to clinch range and end with a throw or sweep putting your partner or opponent on the mat. Anything less feels incomplete.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I find this intriguing. I've felt that the WC I see demonstrated often misses this. Personally, the most satisfying exchanges will close-in from kicking, to punching to clinch range and end with a throw or sweep putting your partner or opponent on the mat. Anything less feels incomplete.

In another thread, we talk about tools in toolbox. As a WC guys, what kind of tolls will you develop in your toolbox?

I use coordinate punch with

1. beginner - back foot landing, and
2. intermediate - leading foot landing.

I find it's simple and easy to learn. What will be the WC power generation method for both beginner, and intermediate level training?

Many years ago, people talked about "snake engine". Is there a easy way to tell the beginner how to train "snake engine"?

 

[wckf92]

In another thread, we talk about tools in toolbox. As a WC guys, what kind of tolls will you develop in your toolbox?

I use coordinate punch with

1. beginner - back foot landing, and
2. intermediate - leading foot landing.

I find it's simple and easy to learn. What will be the WC power generation method for both beginner, and intermediate level training?

Many years ago, people talked about "snake engine". Is there a easy way to tell the beginner how to train "snake engine"?

Well, I've no idea what a 'snake engine' is...but what you described above in number 1 and 2 are typical wing chun training drills to familiarize the student with different power generation methods. I agree with both methods.

I never heard the term "engine" until reading in forums like these.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I never heard the term "engine" until reading in forums like these.

Snaked engine was heavily discussed about 8 years ago in many MA forums. It sounds like a "push" to me.

I can understand that you may want to

- knock your opponent down, or
- take your opponent down.

But to push your opponent away just serve no MA purpose. It's against the MA principle "keep your friend close, but keep your enemy closer".

People may say that you can push your opponent into heavy traffic, or off the cliff. But I still don't understand why people want to spend his valuable training time just to develop "push".

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Also the original wing chun that we practice is a standup grappling art . The goal being to drive through and via sweep,trip,throw put the opponent on the ground. This focus provides a different outlook on power generation and usage than primarily focusing on striking.

Could you talk about the leg skill used in your WC system, and how do you train those leg skill?

 

[ShortBridge]

Well, I've no idea what a 'snake engine' is...

Wow, disappointed in you and hard to believe. It is well documented, though I've never seen one myself.

Snake Engine

 

[wckf92]

Wow, disappointed in you and hard to believe. It is well documented, though I've never seen one myself.

Snake Engine

LOL.
Clearly, I have much to learn!

~ Young Padawan

 

[hunschuld]

Could you talk about the leg skill used in your WC system, and how do you train those leg skill?

First thing is learning to use the lower body. Our SLT is not fixed and stiff. You start to learn how to use knees and hips and your internal structure.. Then you learn SLT on 1 leg to start you on balance and how to use the energies. sinking ,float swallow and spit. The knife form has 12 sections some use the low horse the pole has the moving low horse ,the dummy has low horse and our Biu Jee has a low horse section that trains a leg pick and throw. The dummy has 8 sections that do not have a counter part in Ip Man dummy. These sections have several sweeps a couple of sweep/throws and a couple of quad kicking sections and a knee attack. We have a version of chi sau that trains your balance and sweeps and throws as well as how to counter the same. So lots of lops fooks etc.also trains the use of the shoulder all done at close range.
When teaching we don't wait x amount of time to teach concepts from advanced forms . The goal is get you trained enough to defend yourself as fast as possible so concepts from the knives and dummy are taught early