The biggest problem in Wing Chun (and most other TCMA).

[Kung Fu Wang]

Not sure I understand the question. Do you mean "knock 'm down" ....like with a really hard punch? ....or do you mean "throw 'em down" and slam them on the floor? ....or something else? ... "Where's your finishing technique?"

That's the main point. Where is your finishing move?

Compare to the following 2 videos:

1. A throws a punch in front of B's face and then pulls back. Both remain standing.
2. A takes B down in 1 second. A remains standing while B is on the ground.

1. it's very difficult to demonstrate forward pressure, strong rooting, body connection, ...
2. it's very easy to demonstrate forward pressure, strong rooting, body connection, ...

People put up some WC clips in the forum. Since in the video, both persons remain standing, the video just look too "civilized" to me.

If you can find a way to express the aggressive, powerful, deadly, ... WC spirits in a video, may be that method can be applied on the WC daily training.

 

[Flying Crane]

Not sure I understand the question. Do you mean "knock 'm down" ....like with a really hard punch? ....or do you mean "throw 'em down" and slam them on the floor? ....or something else?

Once I was in an open FMA-based seminar (not WC), dealing with empty hands work (not weapons) and the instructor asked us each to show him a response to a specific attack using our own MA system. I showed one possible WC solution.

The instructor's response was "Where's your finishing technique?" Typically in WC you don't see combinations ending in a specific "finishing move" like you do in some systems. There is no "final" power punch, throw or submission. You just keep attacking until the threat is stopped, or until you can escape and run away.

I don’t see anything wrong with that.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

There is no "final" power punch, throw or submission. You just keep attacking until the threat is stopped, or until you can escape and run away.

Many CMA systems have take down in it. I'm sure WC also has take down in it. So far we have not seen many WC take down video yet. Why?

Even Karate has take down in the system.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Many CMA systems have take down in it. I'm sure WC also has take down in it.

I have a theory about this, but it's pretty wild.

Here it is in a nutshell: Wing Chun students don't know what they're doing or how to train.

And the people who can crush people with the adduction stance on the ground are the true masters, but try telling that to the Wing Chun community, addicted to standing up.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I have a theory about this, but it's pretty wild.

Here it is in a nutshell: Wing Chun students don't know what they're doing or how to train.

And the people who can crush people with the adduction stance on the ground are the true masters, but try telling that to the Wing Chun community, addicted to standing up.

You can use WC

- double Tan Shou to separate your opponent's arms away from his head.
- Fu Shou to grab on your opponent's wrist.
- Bong Shou to obtain under hook.
- ...

The tools to be used to integrate the striking art and the grappling art are there. It's up to the WC guys to utilize those tools in 100% capacity.

 

[geezer]

Not sure I understand the question. Do you mean "knock 'm down" ....like with a really hard punch? ....or do you mean "throw 'em down" and slam them on the floor? ....or something else?

Once I was in an open FMA-based seminar (not WC), dealing with empty hands work (not weapons) and the instructor asked us each to show him a response to a specific attack using our own MA system. I showed one possible WC solution.

The instructor's response was "Where's your finishing technique?" Typically in WC you don't see combinations ending in a specific "finishing move" like you do in some systems. There is no "final" power punch, throw or submission. You just keep attacking until the threat is stopped, or until you can escape and run away.

I have a theory about this, but it's pretty wild.

Here it is in a nutshell: Wing Chun students don't know what they're doing or how to train.

And the people who can crush people with the adduction stance on the ground are the true masters, but try telling that to the Wing Chun community, addicted to standing up.

Ummm.... why do you think we don't practice throws and using "goat-riding stance" to clamp people on the ground? It's pretty basic to the system.

Unless you mean using adduction while rolling. I haven't found that very practical. Have you?

You can use WC

- double Tan Shou to separate your opponent's arms away from his head.
- Fu Shou to grab on your opponent's wrist.
- Bong Shou to obtain under hook.
- ...

The tools to be used to integrate the striking art and the grappling art are there. It's up to the WC guys to utilize those tools in 100% capacity.

I do like sweeps and throws, and they are integral to the system. I don't know why a lot of guys who do WC don't enjoy that part.

Now I don't play with that stuff so much (back injury) but in my younger days I lost several students because they didn't like closing to clinch or tie-up and throw. Not because they were "addicted to standing up" as Oily said. But more like because they were allergic to going down to the mat.

And BTW, we weren't going hard like this guy:

Too bad. I think that's awesome!

 

[Oily Dragon]

Ummm.... why do you think we don't practice throws and using "goat-riding stance" to clamp people on the ground? It's pretty basic to the system.

Because "We" is a pretty useless pronoun. People misuse it a lot, like you just did.

But if that was the royal we, then yes, you probably do, but you're a very, very, very lonely we.

We both know there are so many wes in Wing Chun, they tend to argue about everything, like that the goat riding stance is standing combat stance even though that's silly.

Unless you mean using adduction while rolling. I haven't found that very practical. Have you?

 

[Oily Dragon]

You can use WC

- double Tan Shou to separate your opponent's arms away from his head.
- Fu Shou to grab on your opponent's wrist.
- Bong Shou to obtain under hook.
- ...

The tools to be used to integrate the striking art and the grappling art are there. It's up to the WC guys to utilize those tools in 100% capacity

Well then we agree the "WC guys" have failed pretty hard.

But you seem to like my theory. Thank you, I like it because it's simple, and practically every Youtube video of Wing Chun supports it. There is an occasional exception, but let's face it, integrating Snake, Crane, and Dragon kung fu is not easy. Most of these "Wing Chun guys" will never even approach mastering one of those animal aspects, let alone three.

What you'll see is a lot of attempts at Snake hands, Dragon elbows, some Crane defense. The Unicorn (get the joke?) is that ultra rare Wing Chun student who not only learns all three well, but combines them and then hits the anvil with the hammer. That last part (the sparring) is where the comfort ends, but where so many Wing Chun students hit a wall.

 

[geezer]

View attachment 27486

OK Oily, I was all set to argue with your crazy generalizations, but I keep forgetting what I was annoyed about when I look at this awesome meme you posted.

Did you come up with this twist on the "All warfare is deception" meme? 'Cause I want this on a T-shirt ...bad!

 

[JowGaWolf]

Is our punching a problem? Any thoughts?

I don't think punching is a sizable issue. The biggest issue in my opinion will always be System A vs System A sparring. Wing Chun vs Wing Chun is not an issue. Wing Chun vs other systems is. My belief is that Wing Chun wasn't made to fight Wing Chun. That's what sports do. In general, most martial arts systems were designed to defeat a different system.

The power of a strike will always vary depending on the system you are striking against.

 

[JowGaWolf]

The real issue is the lack of this, in Wing Chun sparring.

I stand corrected.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Many CMA systems have take down in it. I'm sure WC also has take down in it. So far we have not seen many WC take down video yet. Why?

Even Karate has take down in the system.

I've seen WC take downs before. But you'll only see it with teachers who think System A vs System B. If the teacher only cares about beating other Wing Chun then you won't see it.

 

[Oily Dragon]

OK Oily, I was all set to argue with your crazy generalizations, but I keep forgetting what I was annoyed about when I look at this awesome meme you posted.

Did you come up with this twist on the "All warfare is deception" meme? 'Cause I want this on a T-shirt ...bad!

Yes, I made that, because it's true.

It's all yours.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I've seen WC take downs before. But you'll only see it with teachers who think System A vs System B. If the teacher only cares about beating other Wing Chun then you won't see it.

One thing that I don't understand here.

1. The boxing toolbox contains jab, cross, hook, uppercut.
2. The Judo toolbox contains hip throw, foot sweep, leg lift, leg block, ...
3. The WC toolbox contains Tan Shou, Fu Shou, Bong Shou.

Why does the WC system address defense tools more than offense tools?

 

[Oily Dragon]

One thing that I don't understand here.

1. The boxing toolbox contains jab, cross, hook, uppercut.
2. The Judo toolbox contains hip throw, foot sweep, leg lift, leg block, ...
3. The WC toolbox contains Tan Shou, Fu Shou, Bong Shou.

Why does the WC system address defense tools more than offense tools?

 

[JowGaWolf]

Why does the WC system address defense tools more than offense tools?

Probably because they only spar with themselves and with each generation they start to assume that those are the types of attacks that they will be getting on the streets. Kung fu in general is bad about stuff like that. Not all systems, but a lot.

 

[drop bear]

One thing that I don't understand here.

1. The boxing toolbox contains jab, cross, hook, uppercut.
2. The Judo toolbox contains hip throw, foot sweep, leg lift, leg block, ...
3. The WC toolbox contains Tan Shou, Fu Shou, Bong Shou.

Why does the WC system address defense tools more than offense tools?

I thought they were offensive tools.

 

[Cynik75]

Sure, this is hardly a novel point of view, but you know, I think it's a legit question. Is our punching a problem? Any thoughts?

Gloves changes everything. Nobody hits very hard without gloves and tapes. Old pugilistic matches since antiqiuty till Quinsberry rules according to historical sources lastel very long sometimes.

 

[Flying Crane]

One thing that I don't understand here.

1. The boxing toolbox contains jab, cross, hook, uppercut.
2. The Judo toolbox contains hip throw, foot sweep, leg lift, leg block, ...
3. The WC toolbox contains Tan Shou, Fu Shou, Bong Shou.

Why does the WC system address defense tools more than offense tools?

The wing Chun toolbox contains far more than tan, fu, and bong. You can’t pick three random items and then make a blanket statement from them.

 

[Oily Dragon]

I thought they were offensive tools.

I agree, I too am frequently offended by Wing Chun students.