The biggest problem in Wing Chun (and most other TCMA).

[wckf92]

Why does the WC system address defense tools more than offense tools?

Oh dear

 

[Callen]

One thing that I don't understand here.

1. The boxing toolbox contains jab, cross, hook, uppercut.
2. The Judo toolbox contains hip throw, foot sweep, leg lift, leg block, ...
3. The WC toolbox contains Tan Shou, Fu Shou, Bong Shou.

Why does the WC system address defense tools more than offense tools?

This is a very limited view of what the Wing Chun toolbox "contains". Observation alone, is usually not enough to formulate accurate conclusions about the functionality, concepts, and principles of the Wing Chun system.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

This is a very limited view of what the Wing Chun toolbox "contains". Observation alone, is usually not enough to formulate accurate conclusions about the functionality, concepts, and principles of the Wing Chun system.

In another thread, people asked "What's your finish move?"

What are the rest of the tools in the WC toolbox that can be used to finish the job.

 

[wckf92]

In another thread, people asked "What's your finish move?"

What are the rest of the tools in the WC toolbox that can be used to finish the job.

a hammer can build and destroy. Choose your path. That's why there is a yang to the yin and vice versa.

 

[Callen]

In another thread, people asked "What's your finish move?"

What are the rest of the tools in the WC toolbox that can be used to finish the job.

The essence of the system is that there are no “rest of the tools" in the Wing Chun toolbox. All of the concepts and principles of the system are the toolbox, there is no single tool. Ever.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I have a theory about this, but it's pretty wild.

Here it is in a nutshell: Wing Chun students don't know what they're doing or how to train.

And the people who can crush people with the adduction stance on the ground are the true masters, but try telling that to the Wing Chun community, addicted to standing up.

Yikes! They will be coming to get you for your nutshell! Angry mob of WC proponents with pitchforks!

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Gloves changes everything. Nobody hits very hard without gloves and tapes. Old pugilistic matches since antiqiuty till Quinsberry rules according to historical sources lastel very long sometimes.

You need tape and gloves to hit hard?

 

[Dirty Dog]

Gloves changes everything. Nobody hits very hard without gloves and tapes. Old pugilistic matches since antiqiuty till Quinsberry rules according to historical sources lastel very long sometimes.

I'm sorry, what? You can't hit hard without gloves and tape? Do you have osteogenesis imperfecta or some such disorder?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

This is a very limited view of what the Wing Chun toolbox "contains". Observation alone, is usually not enough to formulate accurate conclusions about the functionality, concepts, and principles of the Wing Chun system.

This may be the difference between WC and other CMA systems. From a cross training point of view, one may like to know what tools that WC system can offer in his toolbox.

For example, someone's toolbox may contain:

- Karate flying side kick.
- MT flying knee.
- wrestling single leg.
- Judo hip throw.
- boxing uppercut.

If that person wants to add in a new WC tool, what WC tool "might" that be?
- ...

 

[drop bear]

Gloves changes everything. Nobody hits very hard without gloves and tapes. Old pugilistic matches since antiqiuty till Quinsberry rules according to historical sources lastel very long sometimes.

Yeah. I hear this one a lot and am quite simply not convinced.

What I think happened was pugilists had this unique niche area that was basically untested and so could say any old thing and people just believed them. Because very few people were willing to walk in to a bare knuckle fight.

Unfortunately we now have bare knuckle boxing as a mainstream competition. And so everyone can now see how bare knuckle boxing actually looks like. And who is good at it, what works and so on.

My estimation is they hit each other pretty hard.

 

[Cynik75]

...
Unfortunately we now have bare knuckle boxing as a mainstream competition....
My estimation is they hit each other pretty hard.

True test should be done without tapes. If hard hitting without gloves and tapes make the break of hand bones and wrists more often. Look at the exaple of Mike Tyson who broke his hand in street brawl.
And If hard hitting without gloves nad tapes makes the difference for long time health and career.

 

[Callen]

If that person wants to add in a new WC tool, what WC tool "might" that be?

That's a good question. Unfortunately, I'm unable to give the answer you're looking for...

In order to utilize the Wing Chun system's concepts and principles effectively, one has to properly understand and train the system over time to develop the appropriate responses and actions. Merely attempting to mimic what someone thought was the best "tool", in my opinion, would result in a hard fail. This is due to the fact that the system as a whole is the tool, there are no stand alone "techniques". From my perspective, it would be a mistake to view the Wing Chun system as consisting of separate shapes.

So I guess my takeaway is that if an experienced Wing Chun practitioner wanted to apply the system in addition to other Martial Art styles, he/she would simply utilize the concepts and principles of the system when it was most effective for them at that moment.

 

[JowGaWolf]

What I think happened was pugilists had this unique niche area that was basically untested and so could say any old thing and people just believed them. Because very few people were willing to walk in to a bare knuckle fight.

I wonder if medical treatment was a concern? We are talking about the 1700's where an infected cut could be a death sentence. Penicillin was discovered until the 1900's. If I were to travel back in time, I would probably want to keep my cuts and scrapes to a minimum, especially if I was in the city or farm areas. We talked about how dangerous fist bite could be. These guys were fighters so they were probably aware of it. A more technical punch would greatly lower the risk, carefully picking punches to the face to reduce the risk of fist bite.

Just found this (source: A 26-year-old American is in a medically induced coma after getting hit with a throat punch during a recent bare-knuckle boxing match)

• Francesco Ricchi, 26, was placed in a medically induced coma after a weekend bare-knuckle fight.
• Ricchi defeated Noah Cutter in the third round of a match at the Bare Knuckle Fighting Championship 14 event in Florida.
• Cutter later said on social media that he had learned his opponent had been taken to a hospital because of a throat punch that caused complications.

I guess we can validate the idea and principal of leopard fist to the throat.

 

[JowGaWolf]

True test should be done without tapes. If hard hitting without gloves and tapes make the break of hand bones and wrists more often.

You can still hit hard without gloves and tape. The solution is in the fist structure that you are using and have a better way of targeting areas that reduce the risk of breaking the hand. For example.

In dropbears video, we see them wildly swinging, In many martial arts systems, the techniques are designed to position the opponent so you can get a cleaner strike on areas that don't break the hands. I don't see this same positioning used in bare-knuckle fights. I have seen one or 2 professional boxers use it, but didn't see it 30 years before.

 

[JowGaWolf]

That's a good question. Unfortunately, I'm unable to give the answer you're looking for...

In order to utilize the Wing Chun system's concepts and principles effectively, one has to properly understand and train the system over time to develop the appropriate responses and actions. Merely attempting to mimic what someone thought was the best "tool", in my opinion, would result in a hard fail. This is due to the fact that the system as a whole is the tool, there are no stand alone "techniques". From my perspective, it would be a mistake to view the Wing Chun system as consisting of separate shapes.

So I guess my takeaway is that if an experienced Wing Chun practitioner wanted to apply the system in addition to other Martial Art styles, he/she would simply utilize the concepts and principles of the system when it was most effective for them at that moment.

I don't think it's a difficult task. We see some of this already in the different variations of WC. One year someone shared a video oh him working WC principles in the ground game from top mount.

 

[Callen]

I don't think it's a difficult task. We see some of this already in the different variations of WC. One year someone shared a video oh him working WC principles in the ground game from top mount.

I don't disagree that it's possible for some. But I believe the plausibility of some people successfully blending Wing Chun is a different topic altogether.

My response was directed specifically to the question asked about picking one "tool" from the Wing Chun system to add to other solutions. I think to ask that question, is to miss the essence of the Wing Chun system. All of the concepts and principles of the system are the toolbox, there is no single tool.

 

[Flying Crane]

That's a good question. Unfortunately, I'm unable to give the answer you're looking for...

In order to utilize the Wing Chun system's concepts and principles effectively, one has to properly understand and train the system over time to develop the appropriate responses and actions. Merely attempting to mimic what someone thought was the best "tool", in my opinion, would result in a hard fail. This is due to the fact that the system as a whole is the tool, there are no stand alone "techniques". From my perspective, it would be a mistake to view the Wing Chun system as consisting of separate shapes.

So I guess my takeaway is that if an experienced Wing Chun practitioner wanted to apply the system in addition to other Martial Art styles, he/she would simply utilize the concepts and principles of the system when it was most effective for them at that moment.

And I will add to that in saying that if you embrace the system and understand the principles it is built upon, then anything can become a technique if it can be applied with those principles. You are not limited to the formal curriculum taught in class. The formal curriculum is simply examples that express the principles clearly, so you can understand the concepts and learn how it works. Once you understand it, you can apply whatever you want. It is a springboard from which to do anything, a platform that you can then build on in anyway you like.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I don't disagree that it's possible for some. But I believe the plausibility of some people successfully blending Wing Chun is a different topic altogether.

My response was directed specifically to the question asked about picking one "tool" from the Wing Chun system to add to other solutions. I think to ask that question, is to miss the essence of the Wing Chun system. All of the concepts and principles of the system are the toolbox, there is no single tool.

I think it's possible. Think of it as using the Technique and switching out the engine. Same technique different way to drive the power for the same movement.

Here's why: A lot of what is shown here can be seen in Jow Ga forms. Not performed the same way, but the mechanics are close enough for the techniques that I should not have problem doing the Wing Chun Variant and a Jow Ga student shouldn't have a problem doing the Jow Ga variant. Boxer's shouldn't have problem doing the uppcut version as well. Actual fighting will cause some changes in the way techniques look so I wouldn't get caught up in how it performed in forms.

The Bill Gee is similar to one of the main techniques in Jow Ga. It takes the same path, for us it's not specifically an eye poke even though we can use it that way. From my understanding is that there's less opportunity to use it that way.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I don't disagree that it's possible for some. But I believe the plausibility of some people successfully blending Wing Chun is a different topic altogether.

My response was directed specifically to the question asked about picking one "tool" from the Wing Chun system to add to other solutions. I think to ask that question, is to miss the essence of the Wing Chun system. All of the concepts and principles of the system are the toolbox, there is no single tool.

I do agree with you about the blending of techniques when it comes to using the engine that drives the techniques. I can't drive those similar techniques with a WC engine. If I do that then I'm no longer doing WC. I can take the technique use a Jow Ga engine but at that Point I'm no longer doing WC I'm doing Jow Ga

Blending in such a way where WC technique uses WC engine and then switching off into something else is not easy to do in a way that it flows. We can all jump in out of different system engines Jumping in and out is not the same as flowing. Where Jow Ga would naturally flow into WC and WC can naturally flow back into Jow Ga where it's difficult to see when one begins and the other ends. That is difficult to and I'm like you in that area. I don't know if it's possible to do such a thing with all things.

Chocolate and milk blends well. Hot Sauce and milk probably not so much lol.

 

[JowGaWolf]

This type of WC footwork shown here has a better chance of working with my Jow Ga techniques.