‘That’ Person

[Gyakuto]

I think it's important not to think of yourself as something other than "these people".

I am ‘that’ person when it comes to say dancing, office administration, athletics; I’m useless at them. You are also ‘that’ person in many fields.

For example you appear to be into Japanese swords.

Just a little bit, really. I don’t lick them or touch them inappropriately or anything.

Can you provide some examples of your expertise in Japanese swords?

No - I am far from an expert. The only objective measures of anything are probably examination/grading/Olympic gold medals (the others don’t count -they for the first and second losers) results administered by a well-organised governing body. This is why we have degrees, masters and Ph.Ds, City & Guilds in plumbing (I’d love to be a plumber), building, plastering etc. I know not of such a structure for learning about swords (unfortunately)

Subjectively, one can usually spot expertise in a performance; you can spot an accomplished acting performance at the Royal Shakespeare Company in Stratford -upon-Avon (my old haunt) over a poor one in the ‘Pirates of Penzance’ at Holmfirth Village Hall. You can look at a good and poor dancing performance without being able to specify beyond the very basics, why one is good and why one is bad. It is not logical, but it is often true.

 

[Badhabits]

I can't count how many times I heard my father say that the people with little natural talent benefit the most from training if they stick with it.

 

[wab25]

I ended up thinking about this thread last night on my way home from the dojo. A few interesting thoughts came to me regarding this subject.

I have now had 2 girls, who are my students, get physically assaulted. One was out at a bar, the other was in her own front yard. Both of these students would fall under your definition of "that student." They are a little clumsy, take a while to pick up the techniques... they will never win a championship, an Olympic medal or become recognized masters of our art. However, both were able to use what they learned in class to end the assault. One was able to break free and escape, the other put her attacker down. Thinking about this thread last night, these incidents popped into my mind and I was grateful that I did not take the suggested course of action with these two.

I have had a few gifted students, but most of my students are "those students." While they are not gifted, some are not even athletic, we show up and train and get a little better. Nearly every single student I have had, has at least one story of taking a fall, in the real world, but because of the rolling / falling training we do in Danzan Ryu, they were able to get up and laugh about it, when many of those times they could have ended up in the hospital. Again, I am glad we spent the time to teach these folks how to fall and not get hurt.... because they did fall and did not get hurt. (most of us clumsy folks have many such stories.... I know I do)

If people want to come and train... they should be welcome to come and train. You never know what will come of it.

 

[Gyakuto]

I can't count how many times I heard my father say that the people with little natural talent benefit the most from training if they stick with it.

Oh you should give him a copy of Bounce/Peak. They are truly fascinating reads and really fit in with the ‘American dream’ that hard work can get you anywhere.

 

[Sammy Naur]

You are also ‘that’ person in many fields.

What?

You are projecting, you come across as angry.

Go join a boxing gym or some solace place where you can let it out.

 

[Sammy Naur]

Read these and then get back to me.

Nope. Get back to yourself.

I hate repeating myself but you are one of those people who watch combat, and talk about it, but probably have not lifted a dumbell in years. Imagine you trying to lift a human.

That sort of mental weakness leads people to starting threads like this.

 

[MT Admin Team]

Attention All Users:

Please keep the conversation polite and respectful.

 

[ap Oweyn]

Minor bullying at school encouraged me to join a municipal Karate class as a 12 year old and the kung Fu TV series I watched as a child. It was £10 for ten weeks of 2hour training! I got a book out of the library called ‘Know Karate Do’ by Bryan Williams and absorbed every word. It was a really good introductory book and I recently bought a copy from ebay from nostalgic perusal!

I think it’s quite common for sword arts. Friend from my old club tell me that they regularly have beginners arrive for their first class with sharpened, totally white katana (which I think is an anime thing). Remember swords are illegal in the U.K., so this is very bold indeed.

No it isn’t. It’s your initial inspiration, which is great.

Yes that’s true, but, if like me you believe talent is made rather than inherited then be really involved in the training rather than coasting along in cool clothing, holding others back!

See that's the thing, isn't it. There may be an inciting event (e.g., bullying). But then there's also some source of inspiration (e.g., the Kung Fu series). We have a perceived problem and embrace a perceived solution. Personally, I don't think David Carradine could defeat a wet paper towel in single combat. But we latch onto what we latch onto. I'm 53 and can easily relate with Carradine and that show being your gateway. But kids using anime as their gateway seems perfectly understandable to me.

I also teach a weapon art that includes swords and knives. Part of the role of a teacher (in my view) is to disabuse those notions, not disown those students. Can you imagine a world in which education only holds itself accountable for those who show an aptitude? To me, that sounds like an absolute dumpster fire of a world.

I haven't lived in the UK for a very long time, so I had forgotten that swords are illegal. But you're telling me that, despite this being a crime, students regularly show up with sharpened katana on Day 1? How regularly are we talking?

Regardless, doesn't that seem like a fairly straightforward fix? "Um, no, you're not using that here today. Or any day. Now let's get to work properly."

Talent may be made. Or at least built upon. But, in my opinion, a teacher should help students to find their way in. Not everyone starts from the same place and it sometimes takes folks a while to find their "in."

I'm a nerd. And, while I'm very ambivalent about anime in particular, I get what it's like to look at martial arts and simultaneously think "this is awesome" and "this is the solution to my confidence problems." When I look back, I cringe at memories of sticking my little finger out in sparring like Bruce Lee. Or decorating my room with Asian characters I couldn't read. Or any number of other retrospectively silly behaviours. But that's life. People grow and change. And teachers help people grow and change.

Three other thoughts:

1. Teaching the less talented makes you a better teacher in my view. You have to work out different ways to get things across. There's value in that for any teacher.
2. Balancing the needs of students with less and more need is part of classroom management. I don't believe it impedes talented students for a teacher to not constantly be at their side.
3. One of the best ways for less talented people to learn is to see their peers doing it properly. Students frequently come in with an image in their heads, but that image can be revised and replaced. How's that going to happen if those students are rejected and sidelined?

 

[Gyakuto]

(Perhaps I should say, I have taken a controversial point of view to initiate conversation, play devils advocate etc. Many of you seem to understand this and are offering interesting points of view. Others seem to be unable to see that a view contrary to theirs isn’t necessarily wrong/immoral/unworthy)

 

[Sammy Naur]

Attention All Users:

Please keep the conversation polite and respectful.

I apologize if I've been harsh.

But in the last week I've been called a liar, a fool, and now "that guy" by some Japanophile.

I guess I was suckered in, but you know something? I can beat the junk out of people in the clinch, because I've trained well.

Hopefully that helps explain why I get frustrated with these block quoting, "oh I've never actually boxed" posers who believe they're the tough guys. I've seen a lot of tough guys in my day, and most of them went home crying.

"That guy". Heh

 

[Hot Lunch]

I'vveee boxxxedd! Havee yoooooouuuu! Discussion, over! I'm goooodddddd, emeffers! Over alll offf yooouuuu!!!! I'd destroy allll offff youuuuu!!!!

 

[Gyakuto]

See that's the thing, isn't it. There may be an inciting event (e.g., bullying). But then there's also some source of inspiration (e.g., the Kung Fu series). We have a perceived problem and embrace a perceived solution. Personally, I don't think David Carradine could defeat a wet paper towel in single combat.

<Gasp> he was Kung Fu!

But we latch onto what we latch onto. I'm 53 and can easily relate with Carradine and that show being your gateway. But kids using anime as their gateway seems perfectly understandable to me.

Yes I can see that, but what we’ve noticed is the motivation to wear all white and have white swords to more closely emulate their anime crush rather than become good at the art; it’s more like cosplay. I suspect they want to learn a bit so they can doing a flashy resheathing at ‘Comics-are-a-Con’…impress their mates.

I liked Kung Fu, only had easy access to Karate so I wanted to really get good at that art (little did I know there was a thriving CMA community in Manchester city centre only 3 miles away!

I also teach a weapon art that includes swords and knives. Part of the role of a teacher (in my view) is to disabuse those notions, not disown those students.

A very good point, well made!

Can you imagine a world in which education only holds itself accountable for those who show an aptitude?

Well that’s what I’m saying…there is no aptitude. Look at it from an evolutionary point of view (which is my habit), what survival advantage does being able to academically study/learn an unarmed martial art/play a musical instrument/dance/acting etc bestow upon the practitioner? Very little. So aptitude in these skill-based areas has to be acquired in spite of the disadvantage devoting so much time to them incurs.

An argument could be made for aptitude in say running/throwing things accurately, since they bestow heritable, advantageous trait.

To me, that sounds like an absolute dumpster fire of a world.

I think you should look around and you’ll see it is and increasingly so. Money gives the most opportunities

I haven't lived in the UK for a very long time, so I had forgotten that swords are illegal. But you're telling me that, despite this being a crime, students regularly show up with sharpened katana on Day 1? How regularly are we talking?

It happens about once a quarter. We noticed Damascus steel-bladed swords (with white scabbards) appearing at these times and wondered if the same one was being passed around (one person said their’s cost them £600!), so we photographed unusual features and they turned out to be different sword…illegal swords!

Regardless, doesn't that seem like a fairly straightforward fix? "Um, no, you're not using that here today. Or any day. Now let's get to work properly."

That’s what we did and there’d be much sighing, acceptance and they’d never come again. We saw one person walking home with their sword strapped to their back! He should be forcibly sterilised to clean the gene pool a little.

Talent may be made. Or at least built upon.

As I said, why would such abstract ‘talents’ be preserved and passed on? Perhaps having longer arms for throwing further, eyes wider apart for better visual depth deeper glenoid fossae to protect the shoulder joints, stronger rotator cuff muscles…it’d take a while for those to appear in an individual population, but they probably would. But that’s physical advantage rather than neural. I forgotten my point now, but any excuse to talk about Darwin’s incredible fact!

But, in my opinion, a teacher should help students to find their way in. Not everyone starts from the same place and it sometimes takes folks a while to find their "in."

I want to be untalented and in your class!

I'm a nerd.

Yay!

And, while I'm very ambivalent about anime in particular, I get what it's like to look at martial arts and simultaneously think "this is awesome" and "this is the solution to my confidence problems."

Is that what they peddle?

When I look back, I cringe at memories of sticking my little finger out in sparring like Bruce Lee. Or decorating my room with Asian characters I couldn't read. Or any number of other retrospectively silly behaviours. But that's life. People grow and change. And teachers help people grow and change.

I think many of us here followed that kind of trajectory, but we carried on practising the MA to reach our lofty heights of…whatever.

Three other thoughts:

1. Teaching the less talented makes you a better teacher in my view. You have to work out different ways to get things across. There's value in that for any teacher.

After 30 years of it, you want to give up, though.

1. Balancing the needs of students with less and more need is part of classroom management. I don't believe it impedes talented students for a teacher to not constantly be at their side.

If you have a gaggle of them, it really is a disrupter.

1. One of the best ways for less talented people to learn is to see their peers doing it properly.

Or could it be disheartening to see a peer doing the same things as you but getting better than you?

1. Students frequently come in with an image in their heads, but that image can be revised and replaced. How's that going to happen if those students are rejected and sidelined?

Yes…

This is the best post and you have persuaded me to revise my teaching ideas should I ever get the urge again (very unlikely). Fantastic @ap Oweyn!

 

[Steve]

(Perhaps I should say, I have taken a controversial point of view to initiate conversation, play devils advocate etc. Many of you seem to understand this and are offering interesting points of view. Others seem to be unable to see that a view contrary to theirs isn’t necessarily wrong/immoral/unworthy)

That’s literally the definition of trolling.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

What?

You are projecting, you come across as angry.

Go join a boxing gym or some solace place where you can let it out.

I don’t think he is angry. He likes to joke and stir the pot a bit. I believe he is doing that with this thread. He actively lifts weight and is an accomplished sword guy no matter what he is playing at here. Sorry to ruin the fun.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I'vveee boxxxedd! Havee yoooooouuuu! Discussion, over! I'm goooodddddd, emeffers! Over alll offf yooouuuu!!!! I'd destroy allll offff youuuuu!!!!

Stop quoting my drunken rants, those are my lines!

 

[Gyakuto]

I don’t think he is angry. He likes to joke and stir the pot a bit. I believe he is doing that with this thread. He actively lifts weight and is an accomplished sword guy no matter what he is playing at here. Sorry to ruin the fun.

You have passed the test padawan (hope I’m using that correctly), you may pass…

 

[Gyakuto]

I like a good debate and occasionally get one here…very occasionally

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

That’s literally the definition of trolling.

Except for the motivation.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

You have passed the test padawan (hope I’m using that correctly), you may pass…

Do I get an all white costume like the Dr.? I’m used to blues or greens. Padawan? I’m like the 6’1” 210 lbs 3rd grader who can’t fit the desk.

 

[Steve]

Except for the motivation.

in particular, the motivation. Stirring the pot is precisely the motivation for trolling.

The term comes from fishing, casting a wide net, saying provocative things in the hopes of stirring up faux controversy. I mean, you do you. I’m just glad you are aware you’re being manipulated.