We Are A Black Belt School

[Kaygee]

There was NO personal attack in that. It was blunt advice.
If people all around you are all saying essentially the same thing, even if it's something you don't want to hear, maybe it's time to consider that it might be correct and that you need to consider what they're saying

Nah, cause it's just you saying it.

 

[Kaygee]

We are a black belt school. We are dedicated, we are motivated, we are on a quest to be our best. Or something like that.

There is a whole school pledge that came out from (I think...) United Professionals/Black Belt Schools of America, which offers school owners a number of services for developing, promoting, and running their schools -- including a billing service. If you here that, chances are you are at a school that is associated (past or present) with UP/BBSA. A lot of these schools have a solid business core.

Does that mean automatically run? Not necessarily. As someone who prefers the Malay arts, it is can be difficult to find schools that teach these arts full time. I have seen some schools offer Filipino or Indonesian instruction part-time while also teaching a more popular art that pays the bills.

Some folks prefer looking for the more independent teachers that like teaching out of their garage or basement, and aren't interested in running a business. Nothing wrong with a teacher that doesn't have a retail present but as a student, it can take some intel to make sure you have found someone who is teaching in such a venue by choice...and not because they have poor people skills (or worse...) that are preventing them from operating in a storefront environment.

I hate hate hate hate hate membership contracts and I have the good fortune of living in a state where the consumer protection laws make them difficult (but not impossible) to implement. Other states have no such restrictions and therefore contracts become the norm.

Many schools that work with contracts want to see some sort of financial commitment from the student, especially if the school is not very profitable. Sometimes these can be worked out by making alternative offers. I once talked with someone and proposed that if I trained with him, I would write a check for my first three months tuition up front, and continue to pay him quarterly -- in lieu of signing a contract. He agreed that would be acceptable (I didn't join the school -- too far away) so there are ways of getting around contracts, but sometimes it takes a bit of creativity and a little give-and-take.

Give-and-take is a part of MA training in general. I don't think there is a perfect school out there. I think a big part of training is making the most out of the options that you have available. Training in something that interests you is a big factor. If a person doesn't enjoy what they are doing, they won't stick with it. And...they shouldn't stick with it, IMO. Based on your posts, I'm not sure if you're solidified behind what you are looking for in a school. I'm not saying that as personal dig....I haven't decided on what I am looking for in a school either, which is the main reason why I've been doing a lot more walking in the woods than I have kicking and punching.

Thank you for the detailed explanation. I guess it kind of makes sense, if you look at it from a financial point of view. But that was the point of this thread.....for me to understand if that phrase being on a school's wall is a bad thing or not. It seems that it really isn't, but all of the responses that I received.

Thank you!

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Nah, cause it's just you saying it.

Thats because the rest of us have given up saying it, since you, and others like you (really anyone that has to be told a harsh truth), never want to hear those harsh truths, and often ignore it or take it as a personal insult or attack. Since this is how you respond to it, I'm not going to address that part again.
Now to my response to the thread..I've skimmed through the posts and saw the phrase is related to some organization, but I highly doubt most people are related to that org. More likely, its just a marketing gimmick, to try to attract new customers. However, I wouldn't take that to mean they aren't a legitimate school. A lot of times, instructors will hire someone else to help them promote the school, and just follow their advice, which may make them look like a mcdojo. Even if thats not the case, just because someone uses a certain phrase to attract customers, it has no real bearing on their efficiency and integrity as a school, just that they want students. Never hurts to check them out, and probably get a free lesson or two. Those lessons, and talking to the instructors, are much more telling about if its a mcdojo then anything else, including their advertising techniques. As for the website you found, here is my (limited) personal belief about each tip.
1)avoid contracts:why? If you know you like the school and have checked it out, and plan to stay, why does it mater if there's a contract. think of it like a gym membership, what gym would let you join without a contract? Its just a matter of insurance for the customer.
2)beware of hidden fees:this is what you have to worry about. If you see them in the contract, or the instructor makes an 'off-hand' comment about them, inquire and get worried.
3)multi-tier pricing: if its a common thing they do, changing prices, don't stay unless you would have been willing to pay the new price originally. If it was a sudden thing due to an instructors new financial problem (rent, laid off, etc.) thats a different story, re-evaluate it and if its not too high a price, just pay the new price. dont let them raise you multiple times in a year or 2 though.
4)testing fees: Inquire about the testing fees beforehand, and the amount of belts, and avg. time between ranks, then figure out how much it adds to your overall price. If it seems reasonable, your fine, if not, reconsider.
5)Qualified teachers: Obviously they need to be qualified, but dont worry too much if they wont share their lineage/who they tested with. My view, which ive stated multiple times on this forum, is that if they know the material better than you, are capable in a fight (unless age or a physical handicap is interfering), and understand how to properly teach, they are ok. If not, they should not be teaching you.
6)Avoid chain schools:not necessarily true. Some chain schools are chains because they are effective. Others may be ineffective, but have one or two effective instructors at certain schools, and if you learn from them, you're fine. Look up the schools reputation and use my response to 5 to see if you find the instructor qualified to teach you.
7)(Done typing the advice, just click the link):Completely agree with this one. If schools use calendars instead of skill, never go to them.
8:Important, but most schools ive seen are sanitary enough that to me this is a non-issue.
9:read number 5.
10:While looking them up online is important, its more important to deal with the actual instructor, follow #5, and ask both new and old students, away from the instructor or other students, what they think of the school, the instructors, the new students, he old students, the black belts, etc. Ask them everything (in a casual manner) you would want to ask the instructor. If they give you good answers, you're probably good to go. If most of them give bad answers or wont answer (not because you were being rude or abrupt, but just because they dont want to answer) you either wouldnt like the answer or they are all jerks, dont go to that school.

 

[Kaygee]

Thanks, Kempodisciple. I would like to add a couple comments about your comments to open up a discussion, if you don't mind.

1. Aren't contracts dangerous? While I see the need for them from the school's side (it's a guarantee that they will get paid for "X" amount of time) what if something happens like you lose your job or if you get divorced and cannot afford to go to the school anymore?

2. I have been pretty good at getting this out of the instructor's who's classes I watch. Most of them do not offer the information "up front" or "voluntarily", but they will answer if you ask them.

3. Multi-Tier Pricing, to me, is ridiculous and scary! Let me give you just an example of one of the schools that I went to last week:
You pay $110 a month, you get to attend two classes per week, but cannot test for your black belt- 24 month contract
You pay $120 a month, you get to attend three classes per week and can test for your black belt- 36 month contract
You pay $150 a month, you get to attend unlimited classes per week and can attend the "special" all-inclusive black belt class that is held on Saturday mornings. YAY! (insert dramatic music). -36 month contract
-Now, if I am wrong, and this is normal and what I should be expecting everywhere I go, because I am seeing it nearly everywhere I go, then please tell me so I know that it's just ME that is being dis-trusting.

4. Testing fees seem to always be in the $40-$50 range per test. So it is always expected when I go to a school and ask and I have never been surpised by the instrcutor's answer. Oh, except a few days ago when I attended a Kenpo school and the instructor said he doesn't charge for "stripe tests" and only charges $15 for belt tests. I have never seen them that cheap before. But his monthly fees were pretty expensive, so that is where it probably adds up to in the end.

5. I thank you for your advice here. It seems that a good amount of the instructors I have seen lately, cannot do half of the stuff they are asking their students to do. And these are instructors in their mid 50's, which is not that old nowadays. Not to mention, I have been to some schools where the 60 year old instructor is still doing split kicks in the air. But I know everyone is different. In the school that I just left, none of the three instructors could perform any of the techniques we were being taught. One tried hard (he was about 55) but because he was away from the school for weeks at a time, he was always "tight" and such.

6. I personally do not have anything against chain schools, although we do not have any, outside of Tiger Schulmann, in this area. And they are just WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY too expensive for me! ($199 a month)

7. My former school tested everyone every three months, up to 3rd gup and then tested every 3rd and 2nd gup every six months, all the way up to 1st gup. No one ever failed a test! It was basically just for money. This is where my problem arose with the school. It became more of a "rule" or a "right" to test than a privilege. They would skip students that had prior martial arts experience (even though it had NOTHING to do with Tang Soo Do or even a "hard art" for that matter), or that went to more tournaments per year. They would hold many students at 1st gup for years, but the problem is, they shouldn't have even been at 1st gup to begin with. I saw many 1st gups that were 1st gups for 4 or 5 years quit when I joined because they would not be tested for black belt. And rightfully so, they should not have been tested for black belt......however, they should have been held back at the gup they started having issues at, not pushed to the top gup and sent to practically rot there while they tried like hell to get basic moves like chop blocks and center punches down. If you are not ready to test, then you are not ready to test, in my opinion.

8. I have never had an issue with this either.

9. My number 5 answer applies to this as well.

10. I have tried this, but I have Asperger's syndrome (I am not sure if you know what this is) and I have a really, really hard time talking to people I do not know when I have to be the initiator of the conversation. Instructors are easy to talk to because they usually ask you the questions and open the dialogue and once I start talking.......whew, look out! Anyway, I do try to do this, but it is very hard for me to accomplish because I usually just freeze up and stare (uncomfortably) at the other person. It's an odd issue and most people do not understand it, so I don't expect you to get it.

And in case anyone is wondering, we are talking about the "tips" on the link: http://www.tipsonschools.com/

Let's chat some more about this, shall we?
Thank you!

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Thanks, Kempodisciple. I would like to add a couple comments about your comments to open up a discussion, if you don't mind.

not at all, thats why I posted them!

1. In that sense, they are dangerous but at the same time if you become friendly with the instructor, and explain your situation when something happens, there's a good chance they'll do something to help you out. I know theboarman posted in another thread that he helps people out when they're in financial stress.
2. No real comment, thats generally how it goes.
3. Yeah, I'm not a fan of them doing things that way. As a side note, my kempo school has a black belt class saturday morning, not because other people aren't allowed to attend or we pay more money, but because we just happen to be the only ones motivated enough to wake up before 8 am to go to class for two hours lol..no extra cost beause its a "black belt class"
4. As long as youre fine with the monthly prices and test fees, thats the important part.
5. Just remember, they may have a hip replacement or something so they can't do those high kicks, age isn't the only way to have a physical disability. Im kind of surprised by your instructors though, the 55 year old makes sense that hes tight, but wasn't the other instructor in his 20s or 30s? And he cant perform what he's teaching? hmm...
6. Ugh, not a fan of tiger schulmans. there's one near me that I've visited once or twice, it was complete bs. May have just been the instructors, but would never suggest tiger schulmans, especially with their prices.
7. We've already discussed this aspect of your school to the death, so no comment, but if you dislike it so much, then make sure whatever school you decide doesnt have the same problem.
10. Oh, ok. Well, ask the instructors the questions then. Maybe it would help if you told the instructor you'd like to talk to a student but you have Asperger's so if he could explain to the student what you want? Or bring a friend with you to question the other students, or get their number/facebook/email if texting or iming is easier for you? Either way, its still important to get their opinions, so try one of these if you can, but if you can't, don't worry too much about it since there are better ways to get that information.

 

[Carol]

Thank you for the detailed explanation. I guess it kind of makes sense, if you look at it from a financial point of view. But that was the point of this thread.....for me to understand if that phrase being on a school's wall is a bad thing or not. It seems that it really isn't, but all of the responses that I received.

Thank you!

I think that a lot of the UP/BBSA methods have left some bad tastes in peoples mouths because they are often used for the "belt factory" profit-over-subtance schools, and they introduce elements that are clearly not about landing a brutal punch but more about showing mommy or daddy (who likely have no clue about MA) how junior can be a good little karate student showing discipline and saying yes sir and no sir. On adults that sort of thing starts to get a bit tired after awhile.

 

[Uncle]

This is one of the reasons I'm a big fan of the structure of traditional Kung Fu. There are no belts, no ranks, only the family structure. Also the menkyo in traditional Japanese martial arts. This means that whoever is only there because they want the shiny belt gets gone pretty quickly. There's definitely something to be said for the old methods which espouse hard work.

 

[rframe]

People worry waaaaaaaaay too much about other people, how they run their schools, how they got their rank, blah blah blah... get a grip and just go train somewhere.

You can learn something from just about anyone you meet if you have the right attitude.

If a school gives rank, has extra programs, or whatever else to remain in business and motivate their students... great!

If you dont like those things, then dont participate.... why is that so hard to grasp?

 

[arnisador]

This is one of the reasons I'm a big fan of the structure of traditional Kung Fu. There are no belts, no ranks, only the family structure. Also the menkyo in traditional Japanese martial arts.

In principle, sure. In practice here in the U.S.A., I know plenty of Kung Fu belt mills.

 

[Uncle]

Yeah I'm just glad I found a very traditional sifu. One of the first things he said to me when we first talked was, "I don't give out any belt. What you do with it when someone attack you on the street? Only thing you do is beat them with it. Real Chinese ranking is only sifu and todai. Skill is the only rank that matters."

 

[Josh Oakley]

I hate to break it to you, kaygee... but but if you plan in training in a dojo instead of a back yard, the teacher has to be a business man in addition to a good instructor. And I say this having had really positive experiences in back yards, dojos, and shared use rooms. And an instructor who ONLY wants to be a teacher/mentor... had better already have a substantial savings in their account. To be a full time instructor, that requires a steady income. Otherwise it requires a day job, and that puts constraints on just how much time can be devoted to teaching.

I also ran a dojo for some years. Your jaw would drop at how much it can cost to run one. I had to be a good marketer and keep my students happy (and yes that included teaching people at different levels...some until they threw up, some at a much more limited pace) or there wouldn't have been a dojo to train at. My most recent instructors taught me in a back yard and at a dojo, and I have seen the transition in the most recent case. It is a different ball game. And both these teachers are old school. It is just how it is.

Frankly I don't give a rats *** about the belt. Never did, never will. But there isn't a way around the financial aspect, even among the best of instructors. If you want a cheaper hobby, there IS knitting, or karaoke, or guitar, or a multitude of other things. There is also self study. The thing is though... it really does seem like a majority of the posts I have seen of you as of late have been pretty bitter. And I understand. I really, REALLY understand. Those who know some of my experiences the past few years could tell you. I have as much reason as anyone to be bitter. I had to keep silent on a multimillion dollar martial arts school lawsuit. I have been betrayed, and I have been abandoned. Profoundly. And that was in 2010 and 2012, which really wasnt that long ago.

But I chose to focus on the positive lessons that I could glean from my experiences, and move forward. And KEEP moving forward.

Better than the alternative.

Life is just to short for resentment. There is too much to do.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

 

[MJS]

I greatly apologize if this subject has been touched on before, but when I used the search feature, every single post with "black belt" in it comes up and you can imagine how many times that would be.

As I have discovered recently that I do not have what it takes to be a black belt, I have done much soul-searching and I have been going to even more schools in my area, trying to find a new school to attend. I have visited well over 25 schools in my area.....easily.....the number is probably greater than that!

I noticed that most of these schools have "We Are A Black Belt School" somewhere in their school. I did some research to see what this actually means and it looks like it is a clear sign of a "McDojo" or a school that just likes to rip people off by forcing you to buy package after package with more expensive rates and longer contacts, all while using the "carrot on the stick" philosophy.

I read a great article here http://www.tipsonschools.com/ and noticed disturbing trends mentioned in that article in nearly every single school that I have visited. I realize that no school is going to be like you read like it was back in the good ole days, but are the good schools THAT FAR AND IN BETWEEN?

All of these schools anymore have two to three year contracts with different packages that allow you to attend two classes if you pay X-amount and three classes if you pay X-amount, and nearly all of them have a "black belt club", which always makes me think of the Cobrai Kai from Karate Kid.

The traits of a "bad school" (and I put that in quotes because it is just an opinion from an article) were even existent in my former school. I have read in other articles, similiar to the one I linked above, that mentioned things about your instructor's weight, and if his belly is too big than get out of the school, (one of my instructor's had a big ole belly, he couldn't even kick anymore) or if the instructor's cannot even demonstrate the form or technique that they are trying to teach you, get out of the school.

I am about to just call my search for a martial arts school quits. I just want a school that wants to teach students an art and be NOTHING but a teacher/mentor.......not a owner or banker or salesman.

I know different areas have different trends and schools, but I think my area may just be "dried up". I gotta find that one place out in the middle of nowhere where the instructor is smoking a pipe, living in a tent and is looking for a student to teach.

Just kidding, I know that doesn't exist. But does the phrase "We Are A Black Belt School" mean an automatic GTFO sign?

I've trained at schools that used that motto. The one that I train at now, does not. IMO, the true meaning of the black belt has been so distorted, its not even funny! People instill this vision in students, that the BB is some magical thing. Its not! Its not something that should be handed out, though it is, more times than not. People give the impression that its something that can be earned in a short time. Its not, though it is many times.

IMO, yes, its reeks of Mcdojoism. Hard work, blood, sweat and tears. That, IMHO, is what is needed to earn a BB. Not a motto or people running around, degrading the belt. Sadly, alot of places are more interested in how many BBs they have, rather than the quality of them. I'd rather have 10 BBs, who I know earned it, and can fight, and make all their material work, than 100, who suck!

 

[MJS]

Kaygee,

I've read thru this thread, and I see a few different things. 1) I see people asking the same questions, which results in 2) people getting tired of the same questions. What seems like people giving you a hard time, is, in reality, people not sugar coating anything, and calling the shots like they see them. Thats the way I am. You've asked questions, looked for answers, and I feel that I've offered advice.

You seem passionate about training, yet you also seem confused as to what to do. Finding the right school, one that is quality, one that doesnt charge a ton, its no easy task. I train at a dojo that is very close to where I live, I pay $105/month, but I have classes 6 days a week to pick from, some of those days I can go to 2 classes. I have a BJJ/JJJ school not far from me, that I trained at for a month. Good quality, and about the same cost as where I am now. I only left because it wasn't what I was looking for.

IMO, I think you need to figure out what you want, and figure out your budget. Once you do that, find the school thats right for you.

 

[Kaygee]

I understand where you get that from, and I kind of agree.

I DO know what I want to do though, there just aren't any schools anywhere remotely around me that teach the arts I am interested in, so I settle for arts that closely resemble them or implement a bit of them into their curriculum.

I DO have a budget as well. I'll go as high as $115 a month. I will even go to $120 if the instruction was awesome! But, I would also have to take into account the travel distance because, in reality, that adds to the monthly costs.

But I agree, a lot of people have given me advice and maybe I am failing to see it or failing t listen to it. But I got the point.

 

[MJS]

I understand where you get that from, and I kind of agree.

I DO know what I want to do though, there just aren't any schools anywhere remotely around me that teach the arts I am interested in, so I settle for arts that closely resemble them or implement a bit of them into their curriculum.

I DO have a budget as well. I'll go as high as $115 a month. I will even go to $120 if the instruction was awesome! But, I would also have to take into account the travel distance because, in reality, that adds to the monthly costs.

But I agree, a lot of people have given me advice and maybe I am failing to see it or failing t listen to it. But I got the point.

Yes, sadly, depending on area, you may have a hard time finding what you want. The alternatives: well, the obvious one is to accept that you won't be able to train in that art. You could travel, but again, it depends on how far you wanna go. I know some people that travel hours 1 way, and I know others that fly out of state for a weekend. Again, thats not an option for everyone.

The cost...depending on where you train, who you're training with, etc, will certainly be a factor in cost. A friend who recently got his BJJ Black, now charges over $100 for a 1hr private.

Anyways...like I said, it sounds like you know what you want, you just need to put a plan together and go with it.

 

[rframe]

Look at what's available, eliminate those that are too costly or those that dont fit your schedule, of what remains pick the one that you like the people the best (or that most closely matches the art/style you find most interesting)... pretty simple. In the real world we dont get what we want, we work with what is possible.

 

[Guy Preston]

Kaygee,

I think you're making too much of a big deal out of your situation if I'm completely honest, just linking this back to your previous threads...

'We are a black belt school' being used in marketing is about getting people in the door, nothing more, nothing less - there are then people who will milk students for their cash and pay little regard to their skill, or there are others that will care about their students development a great deal... but you'll also find both of these within schools that don't use the 'black belt school' marketing....

Regarding an instructors belly, it depends on what you are learning, I've seen some great martial artists who are overweight and I've learned great stuff from - your point about them actually knowing their stuff is more where the concern should be...

All you really need to do if you want to study a martial art is go to a class and decide;
-Am I enjoying it?
-Do I believe in it?
-Is the instructor competent?

If all this is yes, then just keep turning up - you're concentrating too much on a 'black belt', don't!! While it's everyone's initial goal when starting in martial arts, if you make it all your training is about, you'll miss out on enjoying the learning process!

You said 'you don't think you have what it takes to be a black belt' - It sounds more to me like you are at a club that doesn't fit with you, as a black belt should really be a reflection of dedication - if you enjoy training, it's easier to be dedicated... if that's the case, leave, find somewhere else....

If you're area is limited, go further afield - but I'm sure you can find something near enough to not be a big drag..

Enjoying what you do, and being dedicated to your development is the key..

 

[lklawson]

I greatly apologize if this subject has been touched on before, but when I used the search feature, every single post with "black belt" in it comes up and you can imagine how many times that would be.

As I have discovered recently that I do not have what it takes to be a black belt, I have done much soul-searching and I have been going to even more schools in my area, trying to find a new school to attend. I have visited well over 25 schools in my area.....easily.....the number is probably greater than that!

I noticed that most of these schools have "We Are A Black Belt School" somewhere in their school. I did some research to see what this actually means and it looks like it is a clear sign of a "McDojo" or a school that just likes to rip people off by forcing you to buy package after package with more expensive rates and longer contacts, all while using the "carrot on the stick" philosophy.

I read a great article here http://www.tipsonschools.com/ and noticed disturbing trends mentioned in that article in nearly every single school that I have visited. I realize that no school is going to be like you read like it was back in the good ole days, but are the good schools THAT FAR AND IN BETWEEN?

All of these schools anymore have two to three year contracts with different packages that allow you to attend two classes if you pay X-amount and three classes if you pay X-amount, and nearly all of them have a "black belt club", which always makes me think of the Cobrai Kai from Karate Kid.

The traits of a "bad school" (and I put that in quotes because it is just an opinion from an article) were even existent in my former school. I have read in other articles, similiar to the one I linked above, that mentioned things about your instructor's weight, and if his belly is too big than get out of the school, (one of my instructor's had a big ole belly, he couldn't even kick anymore) or if the instructor's cannot even demonstrate the form or technique that they are trying to teach you, get out of the school.

I am about to just call my search for a martial arts school quits. I just want a school that wants to teach students an art and be NOTHING but a teacher/mentor.......not a owner or banker or salesman.

I know different areas have different trends and schools, but I think my area may just be "dried up". I gotta find that one place out in the middle of nowhere where the instructor is smoking a pipe, living in a tent and is looking for a student to teach.

Just kidding, I know that doesn't exist. But does the phrase "We Are A Black Belt School" mean an automatic GTFO sign?

Ignore them and go find a Judo Dojo, a BJJ club, MMA club, Muay Thai, Kickboxing, Krav Maga, or "Combatives" group. Most of these either don't care about "ranks," are happy to have "Professional Brown Belts" (like Judo), or have such a long advancement that "black belt" is way way out ahead for almost everyone training there (many BJJ schools don't actually have any "black belts" there and are taught by Blue Belts, iirc).

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

Y
Are they teaching it well?
Is the quality of instruction and the facilities worth what they are charging?

The problem is, most new students are thoroughly unqualified to judge these two questions. How can they tell if the quality of instruction is good or if it's just a bunch of malarkey with some zen phrases thrown in?

It's one of the reasons I wrote the rec.martial-arts Newbie's Guide.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[arnisador]

The problem is, most new students are thoroughly unqualified to judge these two questions. How can they tell if the quality of instruction is good or if it's just a bunch of malarkey with some zen phrases thrown in?

Yeah, I was that 14 year old...er, maybe for longer than I'd care to admit after that, too.