Teach stances or blocks first?

[skribs]

You don't need to be "hard" on them to teach them properly. I'm not sure how one relates to the other.

One kid, I gently corrected him on something simple, he broke down crying and quit 2 classes later. My Master explained to me that sometimes when you correct someone on something too soon, or give too many corrections, it breaks their confidence and they feel like they can't do anything right. So I've learned to back off with the lower belts and only help them with new concepts when they're ready.

No you didn't you went on and on about playing the guitar......Which by the way goes more with my point. You clearly know the fundamentals of playing the guitar and all that's involved. You may practice and focus on 1 specific part at a time but you know there are other parts to it. UNLIKE "put your feet like this and don't move while we work on punches"

Yes, but I also have my instructor helping me along with what to work on and when.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Not necessarily what Taekwondo is about, but more the message I'd want the newer students to receive. (Especially the first one about not fighting for personal gain).



Which is why I'd want it to be more of a message.



One aspect is that in Taekwondo, the white and colored belts are to build a firm understanding of the art, and it really opens up at black belt. At black belt you're supposed to have a firm grasp on the basic techniques of the art. So it's less about the goal, and more about what comes first, the stances and blocks, or the kicks and punches? By the time a student is a green belt they should have all of them.



This is why I need to write novels on this forum. Because people take what I say to the ridiculous extreme and then ridicule me for it. (Then of course I write a novel and half what I said is ignored and people ridicule me on the rest).

This is what I mean:
In a typical white belt class, we will spend more time demonstrating the punch than the stance. Our primary goal at this level is to get students to understand the vocabulary for the punches, and how the punches are different. We teach 3 punches to the white belts and expect the hand movements at least to be precise. But we don't go too much into what a front stance or back stance is until orange belt. The "stance" at the white belt is simply one foot forward and one foot back.

I'm talking about taking the extra minute or so early on to go over stances in more detail. Or about instead of going punch -> block/kick -> stance, putting blocks first.

As long as they're using the stance properly (reasonable weight distribution, balance, etc.), it's not necessary to pile more details on the white belts. It can be done, and in the context of some training approaches it can even be desirable. It wouldn't be good with the way I teach - I get better results by starting with a flexible approach and narrowing down details when they matter.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

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[Kung Fu Wang]

it's not necessary to pile more details on the white belts.

IMO, it's better to explain "why" first, you then explain "how" after that. If you teach your students the purpose of your teaching, they will be happy to do it.

For example.

A: Why do I need to stay in low stance?
B: If you want to use your hand to grab your opponent's leg, you have to drop low.

A: Why do I need to train horse stance?
B: If your opponent tries to pick you up. you sink down into horse stance.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So why not teach them correctly from the beginning and understand that they wont do it perfectly at first but at least they know what they are supposed to be doing in theory even if they can't master it right away. I just can't see how the student is getting anything by saying "Here put your feet like this its called a front stance but don't worry about that we are working on punches so don't move your feet"
It's your school do what you want but I don't think it takes that much more time to teach a proper technique.

Sometimes the student isn't ready to assimilate some details, and giving them those can distract them from other (sometimes more important) concepts. Sometimes I'll let students get away with arm-only punches until they get a reasonable approximation of what that arm should do. Then I'll correct one other part (hips, usually), then another until I get all the mechanics in place. I've known instructors who took this as their teaching approach, and it seemed to work well enough.

 

[skribs]

IMO, it's better to explain "why" first, you then explain "how" after that.

For example.

A: Why do I need to stay in low stance?
B: If you want to use your hand to grab your opponent's leg, you have to drop low.

A: Why do I need to train horse stance?
B: If your opponent tries to pick you up. you sink down into horse stance.

I do wish we did more of this.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I do wish we did more of this.

As a kid, those classes where my instructor showed the usefulness of the horse stance, or any stance, motivated me to work harder on the stances. The first time they showed me what they can do with a half-moon stance blew my mind.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I do wish we did more of this.

This is part of my difference from my primary instructor. I spend a lot more time on "why". That leaves more leeway in deciding the how, so students aren't just copying what I do.

 

[JowGaWolf]

IMO, it's better to explain "why" first, you then explain "how" after that. If you teach your students the purpose of your teaching, they will be happy to do it.

For example.

A: Why do I need to stay in low stance?
B: If you want to use your hand to grab your opponent's leg, you have to drop low.

A: Why do I need to train horse stance?
B: If your opponent tries to pick you up. you sink down into horse stance.

This works good for me as well. I can get away with a general overview for beginner students but the intermediate and more advance students usually get 10- 30 minutes lectures on the "why."

I used to train with a classmate that would make his fist the way that he wanted to make it. He did this for 5 years. He didn't understand why it was important to make his fist the way that we taught in the school until he got into sparring. That changed everything for him. He finally understood the "why."

 

[Tez3]

One kid, I gently corrected him on something simple, he broke down crying and quit 2 classes later. My Master explained to me that sometimes when you correct someone on something too soon, or give too many corrections, it breaks their confidence and they feel like they can't do anything right. So I've learned to back off with the lower belts and only help them with new concepts when they're ready.

Perhaps you weren't as gentle as you thought you were. There is no such thing as correcting someone too early, you would tell a child not to put their hand in a fire immediately after all not wait because it was too early!
I am a great advocate of people actually learning how to teach, doing course etc on how to instruct rather than just instruct because they're a higher grade.

IMO, it's better to explain "why" first, you then explain "how" after that. If you teach your students the purpose of your teaching, they will be happy to do it.

This is exactly right.

As long as they're using the stance properly (reasonable weight distribution, balance, etc.), it's not necessary to pile more details on the white belts.

This is the point though isn't it, a reasonable stance not 'no stance instruction until you've learnt to punch'. We aren't talking about piling on details but teaching a proper stance for punching along with the punching, it can be polished up afterwards, you cannot teach a effective punch without having a correct stance.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

One kid, I gently corrected him on something simple, he broke down crying and quit 2 classes later.

One of my friends solves this problem by the following method.

He told his students that the MA uniform is also called "hero skin". When you put "hero skin" on, you will be responsible for your own injury and death. Since hero will never cry, if you cry, you cannot wear it.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I think I'd have gotten into training that fighting stance in my 30's. It presents some interesting options and obstacles.

I wish I would have learned the value and use of it in my 20's. It was one of the few things I had to learn on my own. Regretfully most instructors regardless of level know how to use the stance. The only reason I learned is because it was something I was actually using and learning how to use during sparring. Then I began to see what it was doing, how it was affecting my opponent, and how certain things are easier at that level.

The other thing I noticed was that certain techniques that I was having problems with actually applying became easier to do at that level. I've been working on higher stance techniques as well simply because I don't know when my body won't be able to do the lower stances like that. Unfortunately everyone gets old and worn out if that person is lucky

 

[Buka]

I think a lot depends on what you're teaching, whether you're in charge of the teaching, where you're teaching and who you're teaching. The "who" is big for me as I do not teach everyone the same way. People learn differently for so many reasons it could have it's own thread.

As you become experienced you learn to read people that first second they set foot on the dojo floor. Before that if you were the one who signed them up.

My beginners class was an hour. Thy were usually in the class for a month or two, then put in the back of the advanced class. Those first few months in the advanced class everyone helped and encouraged them. Beginners were allowed and encouraged to take their own breaks and go sit against the wall and stretch because the pace of the advanced class was pretty much all out. My biggest goal at this point was to make them feel at home. Seemed to work pretty well.

 

[JowGaWolf]

One kid, I gently corrected him on something simple, he broke down crying and quit 2 classes later. My Master explained to me that sometimes when you correct someone on something too soon, or give too many corrections, it breaks their confidence and they feel like they can't do anything right.

This is when you back off on the quantity and then give the student smaller bites to digest. I have had a student cry and that's when I spoke to the child like a father figure. Telling the child that there is no reason to cry and that she can only do her best. As long as she did that she would improve. Then I proved it to her. Before she walked into the school she knew zero kung fu. Then I rambled off the things she learned while at the school, and the things she could do well. Then I explain that it's the same for adults. Somethings are just difficult to learn, but not impossible. She felt better and became stronger once she viewed her shortcomings from a different perspective.

Not everyone is going to rise. I've seen new students quit right then on the spot because they compared what they were doing to what long time students were doing. We tried to be supportive but the student still quit. With people like that, martial arts isn't the problem, the teacher isn't the problem. Their mindset is the problem and sometimes the student is the only one that can fix that.

Sometime what we see as our fault or that we caused it, simply is the fault of the student and their mindset.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Beginners were allowed and encouraged to take their own breaks and go sit against the wall and stretch because the pace of the advanced class was pretty much all out.

This worked for me as well. We always told student to go at their own pace and to take breaks if they need it. Taking a break for us was never presented as a failure thing or not being able to hang tough thing. Sometimes I would take breaks some real some fake, just to show that it was o.k. to do so. Other times I pushed hard even though I knew I probably should have taken that break.

The point is, taking a break was a reality of being in shape, out of shape, returning from a cold, over training, or not getting enough sleep. It happens. it's a part of life. This seem to do well with keeping that personal drive fresh. At any point in time any student's drive could inspire another student regardless of rank.

 

[ballen0351]

Sometimes the student isn't ready to assimilate some details, and giving them those can distract them from other (sometimes more important) concepts. Sometimes I'll let students get away with arm-only punches until they get a reasonable approximation of what that arm should do. Then I'll correct one other part (hips, usually), then another until I get all the mechanics in place. I've known instructors who took this as their teaching approach, and it seemed to work well enough.

Sure on an individual basis one or two students may not get it and you need to break it down even more. But to teach it to everyone like that on purpose makes no sense to me.

 

[Tez3]

Since hero will never cry, if you cry, you cannot wear it.

Yeah that's a brilliant way to help people's mental health...not. Who said heroes don't cry? What a complete load of bollocks, of course heroes can cry and why lie to children about their suits?

 

[skribs]

This is when you back off on the quantity and then give the student smaller bites to digest. I have had a student cry and that's when I spoke to the child like a father figure. Telling the child that there is no reason to cry and that she can only do her best. As long as she did that she would improve. Then I proved it to her. Before she walked into the school she knew zero kung fu. Then I rambled off the things she learned while at the school, and the things she could do well. Then I explain that it's the same for adults. Somethings are just difficult to learn, but not impossible. She felt better and became stronger once she viewed her shortcomings from a different perspective.

Not everyone is going to rise. I've seen new students quit right then on the spot because they compared what they were doing to what long time students were doing. We tried to be supportive but the student still quit. With people like that, martial arts isn't the problem, the teacher isn't the problem. Their mindset is the problem and sometimes the student is the only one that can fix that.

Sometime what we see as our fault or that we caused it, simply is the fault of the student and their mindset.

And it's worked better for me when I've watched how they do with the bites they have and then ease them onto more solid food.

 

[Tez3]

And it's worked better for me when I've watched how they do with the bites they have and then ease them onto more solid food.

Do you have qualifications to teach or coach or just the martial arts grades?

It never fails to amaze me that so many, not just in martial arts, think they can coach just because they can do the sport. Not just at basic level either but at national and professional levels.
Coaching and teaching isn't a natural thing for most, it has to be learnt. It's a more complicated thing than most think, if it weren't would be teachers wouldn't have to go to university to learn how to do it. Whether we are paid instructors or not we really should be professional about teaching/coaching.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Do you have qualifications to teach or coach or just the martial arts grades?

When I was a teaching assistant in UT Austin computer science graduate school, one day my professor asked me to teach Knuth assemble language MIX. That was the 1st year that Knuth published his MIX. I told him that I didn't know MIX (I have learned CDC 6600 assemble language and IBM 360 assemble language). The professor said, "Nobody in our graduate school knows it. You just have to study it and teach it at the same time."

IMO, the term "qualification" is a relative term. It's not an absolute term. Even if you know something a bit earlier that others, and as long as you know how to help others, you are qualified.