Basics and where did the go

[puunui]

It's because the people who dis it, likely fear it. They would never attempt to participate in Olympic Taekwondo because their skill is not good enough or they don't have the knowledge. Instead they can make snide comments about it and give all kinds of bravado reasons why they won't try it and never will, it's a cop out. You never see them put their money where their mouth is. Most I find are weekend seminar warriors.

I think that a lot of people simply don't know about how fast and powerful competition kicking is. I have students who also train in BJJ and like to do local MMA tournaments. The kicking we find from MMA players are short (just like most taekwondo practitioners), they don't put their hip or weight behind the kicks and so their kicks end up being about the same fighting distance as their punches. So they can kick and punch in combination quite well from the same distance.

Our strategy is to kick long, off the line, to their front leg, and two or three of those and they are wincing and weakly lunge in because they don't want to get kicked anymore. That is fine with us, because we are comfortable with the ground game as well. Or if they try to punch, it has little or no power because they cannot torque off their front leg (bashed in) and end up in a back weight stance, raising their front leg to defend. Then comes the knock out with back kick or spin hook kick, as we fake to the leg and spin when they flinch up on their back leg. So by taking away their kicks, we take away their punches as well, and the fight becomes two ranges, our long kicking distance, and ground.

Afterwards, they always comment, what kind of kick was that? And when they hear "Taekwondo", they gain a new respect for something they thought very little of just a few minutes earlier. Kicking is not something you can just read a book or watch videos and get. You really need a good teacher to explain the how, when, where and why.

 

[mastercole]

I think that a lot of people simply don't know about how fast and powerful competition kicking is. I have students who also train in BJJ and like to do local MMA tournaments. The kicking we find from MMA players are short (just like most taekwondo practitioners), they don't put their hip or weight behind the kicks and so their kicks end up being about the same fighting distance as their punches. So they can kick and punch in combination quite well from the same distance.

Our strategy is to kick long, off the line, to their front leg, and two or three of those and they are wincing and weakly lunge in because they don't want to get kicked anymore. That is fine with us, because we are comfortable with the ground game as well. Or if they try to punch, it has little or no power because they cannot torque off their front leg (bashed in) and end up in a back weight stance, raising their front leg to defend. Then comes the knock out with back kick or spin hook kick, as we fake to the leg and spin when they flinch up on their back leg. So by taking away their kicks, we take away their punches as well, and the fight becomes two ranges, our long kicking distance, and ground.

Afterwards, they always comment, what kind of kick was that? And when they hear "Taekwondo", they gain a new respect for something they thought very little of just a few minutes earlier. Kicking is not something you can just read a book or watch videos and get. You really need a good teacher to explain the how, when, where and why.

I have been approached by several MMA fighters/coaches asking us to teach them kicking skills. Happens every so often. During one visit I had one of my black belt fighters 6 feet tall, 150 lbs, doing some kicking drills with one of them, a huge guy, totally ripped, 6'1 220-230. His coach told my guy "don't hold back, try and nail him see if he can handle it" so my guy feints, pauses then goes off the line and folds him in half with a round kick to the gut. The big guy laid down on the floor, he was done. MMA can certainly grapple well, but their kicking and punching skills, even at the elite level is horrible.

But I decided I will not teach any of them anything. I don't like the over all lack of philosophy, the roids, lack of courtesy, smack talk etc.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I have been approached by several MMA fighters/coaches asking us to teach them kicking skills. Happens every so often. During one visit I had one of my black belt fighters 6 feet tall, 150 lbs, doing some kicking drills with one of them, a huge guy, totally ripped, 6'1 220-230. His coach told my guy "don't hold back, try and nail him see if he can handle it" so my guy feints, pauses then goes off the line and folds him in half with a round kick to the gut. The big guy laid down on the floor, he was done. MMA can certainly grapple well, but their kicking and punching skills, even at the elite level is horrible.

But I decided I will not teach any of them anything. I don't like the over all lack of philosophy, the roids, lack of courtesy, smack talk etc.

Thats a good point. When I watch UFC (which is the only mma I see), I must say, the quality of the kicking is poor. Their roundhouses above waist height seem very slow and telegraphed and their range of kicks also seems limited considering there are some effective kicks and kicking combinations that they dont seem to use. A 3rd dan from our club has just started training in mma and said, despite having a lot to learn, he can easily land effective kicks on them and said they cant defend against a sidekick. On his first night he knocked one of them down with a roundhouse to the head and I wouldnt say he is one of the best 3rd dans Ive seen.

 

[puunui]

But I decided I will not teach any of them anything. I don't like the over all lack of philosophy, the roids, lack of courtesy, smack talk etc.

I know what you mean. We try to change that by going in and doing what we do, and when they realize there is nothing they can do about it, they change their tune and show respect, in their own way. Nothing like changing someone's perspective to help them grow. That is what learning really is, having a different viewpoint on something. If you are blazing a trail, like you and I tend to always be doing, you might face a lot of hostility, anger, resentment, etc. from those that do not want to change, but I think it is worth it in the end, helping those that do appreciate the new perspective.

 

[puunui]

During one visit I had one of my black belt fighters 6 feet tall, 150 lbs, doing some kicking drills with one of them, a huge guy, totally ripped, 6'1 220-230. His coach told my guy "don't hold back, try and nail him see if he can handle it" so my guy feints, pauses then goes off the line and folds him in half with a round kick to the gut. The big guy laid down on the floor, he was done.

We like to go back side first, to soften that leg up. Sometimes they will switch stance to open, and in that case we fake to the body or leg to draw their hands down, leg up, then go to the face for the knockout. Going straight to the body is a little more risky because they do train to grab that leg, especially against us, but that 220-230 guy is probably slow enough and your guy was fast enough that you can fold him off the line and he wouldn't react to it. So maybe we would do that. But if it were a match, we would go with the probabilities and stick with our game plan. It is amazing though how all those sit ups and medicine ball and whatever else MMA people do to toughen their core goes out the window the first time you them catch off with a shot they didn't expect. The terror and panic on their faces is priceless. Our MMA matches are usually over within 30 to one minute, depending on how many leg kicks they want to absorb. We are undefeated thus far in local MMA tournaments.

 

[Balrog]

Excellent question. My $0.02 worth...it has to do with the instant gratification that is demanded by students, especially kids, these days. They don't want to spend an hour learning how to correctly distribute their weight in a back stance, or how to use the core of their body to generate power. They just want to waltz in, run around the room, and get a new belt in 2 months.

It's amazing to me how many people come in thinking that they will take lessons for a month and be the next Power Ranger, Ninja Turtle, Jacky Chan, whatever.

 

[mastercole]

We like to go back side first, to soften that leg up. Sometimes they will switch stance to open, and in that case we fake to the body or leg to draw their hands down, leg up, then go to the face for the knockout. Going straight to the body is a little more risky because they do train to grab that leg, especially against us, but that 220-230 guy is probably slow enough and your guy was fast enough that you can fold him off the line and he wouldn't react to it. So maybe we would do that. But if it were a match, we would go with the probabilities and stick with our game plan. It is amazing though how all those sit ups and medicine ball and whatever else MMA people do to toughen their core goes out the window the first time you them catch off with a shot they didn't expect. The terror and panic on their faces is priceless. Our MMA matches are usually over within 30 to one minute, depending on how many leg kicks they want to absorb. We are undefeated thus far in local MMA tournaments.

Wow, that is very interesting. I never knew you were training anyone for that, but I always viewed Hawaii as both a bastion for original mixed martial arts, and "traditional" so I guess the two groups mixing is bound to happen their if anywhere.

What percent of your students are into that?

 

[mastercole]

We like to go back side first, to soften that leg up. Sometimes they will switch stance to open, and in that case we fake to the body or leg to draw their hands down, leg up, then go to the face for the knockout. Going straight to the body is a little more risky because they do train to grab that leg, especially against us, but that 220-230 guy is probably slow enough and your guy was fast enough that you can fold him off the line and he wouldn't react to it. So maybe we would do that. But if it were a match, we would go with the probabilities and stick with our game plan. It is amazing though how all those sit ups and medicine ball and whatever else MMA people do to toughen their core goes out the window the first time you them catch off with a shot they didn't expect. The terror and panic on their faces is priceless. Our MMA matches are usually over within 30 to one minute, depending on how many leg kicks they want to absorb. We are undefeated thus far in local MMA tournaments.

I thinking the reason a lot of them don't survive powerful striking attacks is they do not have good body and head movement, which is the first thing an elite striker in boxing and Taekwondo develop.

I watch MMA and think, the first guy to come along in this sport with good body and head movement - along with the standard good grappling skills - will not only dominate it, he will be a game changer. It's a good laugh watching these so-called elite fighters not move their head, I mean come on, the punches and kicks their opponent is throwing is terrible, the slightest of movement would deflect it, but no, just like that Couture fight where his opponent did the "Karate kid" crane stance jump front kick, Couture closed his eyes winched, did not move and got knocked out, by a crappy kick. I could not believe what I saw, I though maybe he took a dive.

 

[tinker1]

Are you talking about "point karate"? I did not think this still exist in Taekwondo circles as far as tournament events are concerned.

Most of my competition has been in "open tournaments" - "freestyle karate" as it was called back then. This was in the late 60's through the 80's.

I like this style of competition, not because of the contact or the rules - but because of the opponents you encounter.

Olympic style or WTF style (whatever) - all you compete against are TKD guys. So if this is all you do, how do you know if what you practice is any good against someone from another style of martial arts?

If you only spar or compete against people from your style (TKD), or in some cases against people only from within your Kwan or organization - how do you know if you're really any good? - or how what you practice holds up against someone with a different training regimen?

In open tournaments, you could go against a ShotoKan guy in your first match, then maybe a Kajakimbo guy.. then a Kuksulwon guy.. then a Kenpo guy.. then a GungFu guy.. on and on it goes.

I was still doing Kenpo with Master Long when TKD came on the scene in the SF bayarea. Honestly, at first the TKD guys handed our asses to us. They were in awesome shape, fast, powerful, .. and we just weren't accustomed to people trying to kick us in the head.

Then we realized that they were weak in defending against groin shots, and weren't accustomed to people grabbing their legs. After that we did more than hold our own.

Years later when I entered open competition again as a TKD practitioner, my experience in this type of competition + my Kenpo experience helped me a lot. My TKD instructor said the "other styles" were "cheating" - in reality, they were just following the rules of open competition.

Any style or practitioner that doesn't adapt to that situation, isn't going to do well.

Now it seems all the competition is segregated by style and organization. Open competition is a thing of the past. Frankly, my opinion is that the martial arts are the lesser for it's passing.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Most of my competition has been in "open tournaments" - "freestyle karate" as it was called back then. This was in the late 60's through the 80's.

I like this style of competition, not because of the contact or the rules - but because of the opponents you encounter.

Olympic style or WTF style (whatever) - all you compete against are TKD guys. So if this is all you do, how do you know if what you practice is any good against someone from another style of martial arts?

If you only spar or compete against people from your style (TKD), or in some cases against people only from within your Kwan or organization - how do you know if you're really any good? - or how what you practice holds up against someone with a different training regimen?

In open tournaments, you could go against a ShotoKan guy in your first match, then maybe a Kajakimbo guy.. then a Kuksulwon guy.. then a Kenpo guy.. then a GungFu guy.. on and on it goes.

I was still doing Kenpo with Master Long when TKD came on the scene in the SF bayarea. Honestly, at first the TKD guys handed our asses to us. They were in awesome shape, fast, powerful, .. and we just weren't accustomed to people trying to kick us in the head.

Then we realized that they were weak in defending against groin shots, and weren't accustomed to people grabbing their legs. After that we did more than hold our own.

Years later when I entered open competition again as a TKD practitioner, my experience in this type of competition + my Kenpo experience helped me a lot. My TKD instructor said the "other styles" were "cheating" - in reality, they were just following the rules of open competition.

Any style or practitioner that doesn't adapt to that situation, isn't going to do well.

Now it seems all the competition is segregated by style and organization. Open competition is a thing of the past. Frankly, my opinion is that the martial arts are the lesser for it's passing.

I would love a dollar for everytime I have heard a martial artist say that they "learned more from sparring someone from another art than they could ever possibly learn sparring people who train the same thing". I think its healthy to spar people who train a different art or spar using a different ruleset. I mean, if you know leg kicks arent allowed, for instance, then you know not to expect one, so why bother learning to defend one. As Ive said before, cricketers dont bother practicing against underarm bowling because they know they will never be called upon to face an underarm bowler because its not within the rules. Same goes for MA, a ruleset can become so refined that it changes the way you fight. I have often asked tkdists why they dont use a certain tech when they spar and they say "because it wont score".

 

[ETinCYQX]

I'd love to do some open Karate tournaments but I'm not sure I know the other schools here well enough. Something to consider I guess.

 

[mastercole]

Most of my competition has been in "open tournaments" - "freestyle karate" as it was called back then. This was in the late 60's through the 80's.

I like this style of competition, not because of the contact or the rules - but because of the opponents you encounter.

Olympic style or WTF style (whatever) - all you compete against are TKD guys. So if this is all you do, how do you know if what you practice is any good against someone from another style of martial arts?

If you only spar or compete against people from your style (TKD), or in some cases against people only from within your Kwan or organization - how do you know if you're really any good? - or how what you practice holds up against someone with a different training regimen?

In open tournaments, you could go against a ShotoKan guy in your first match, then maybe a Kajakimbo guy.. then a Kuksulwon guy.. then a Kenpo guy.. then a GungFu guy.. on and on it goes.

I was still doing Kenpo with Master Long when TKD came on the scene in the SF bayarea. Honestly, at first the TKD guys handed our asses to us. They were in awesome shape, fast, powerful, .. and we just weren't accustomed to people trying to kick us in the head.

Then we realized that they were weak in defending against groin shots, and weren't accustomed to people grabbing their legs. After that we did more than hold our own.

Years later when I entered open competition again as a TKD practitioner, my experience in this type of competition + my Kenpo experience helped me a lot. My TKD instructor said the "other styles" were "cheating" - in reality, they were just following the rules of open competition.

Any style or practitioner that doesn't adapt to that situation, isn't going to do well.

Now it seems all the competition is segregated by style and organization. Open competition is a thing of the past. Frankly, my opinion is that the martial arts are the lesser for it's passing.

I'm 51 years old now, when I was much younger I fought in open points style tournaments against every possible style that existed in the 70's and 80's. Then I got a serious beat down by a short but powerful and lightning fast WTF/Kukkiwon/Jidokwan Korean master who spoke no English. My days of mish mash style dabbling was over.

Years later, after getting use to the local Taekwondo scene I was fortunate enough to get out of my state and see the national Taekwondo scene and learn a lot more, then I got involved in the International Taekwondo scene. After experiencing Taekwondo on an international level for many years, nothing else can even come close.

 

[tinker1]

I'm 51 years old now, when I was much younger I fought in open points style tournaments against every possible style that existed in the 70's and 80's. Then I got a serious beat down by a short but powerful and lightning fast WTF/Kukkiwon/Jidokwan Korean master who spoke no English. My days of mish mash style dabbling was over.

Years later, after getting use to the local Taekwondo scene I was fortunate enough to get out of my state and see the national Taekwondo scene and learn a lot more, then I got involved in the International Taekwondo scene. After experiencing Taekwondo on an international level for many years, nothing else can even come close.

As far as competition goes, I think it falls into "whatever floats your boat". Remember, this is supposed to be FUN.. otherwise why do it?

For me, open competition was fun. I enjoyed testing myself against other styles.. it was sort of like a chess match.

But that's not for everyone. Some - many enjoy the Olympic style, and as long as they're having fun, and it floats their boat, I say "good for them".

I think any sort of competition enhances your abilities, broadens your scope, and builds your character. So it's all good in my view.

ralphmcpherson: I think its healthy to spar people who train a different art or spar using a different ruleset. I mean, if you know leg kicks arent allowed, for instance, then you know not to expect one, so why bother learning to defend one. As Ive said before, cricketers dont bother practicing against underarm bowling because they know they will never be called upon to face an underarm bowler because its not within the rules. Same goes for MA, a ruleset can become so refined that it changes the way you fight. I have often asked tkdists why they dont use a certain tech when they spar and they say "because it wont score".

Back in about 1986 I was traveling a lot for business (my day job). Several trips took me to Italy, and over the course of time I made friends there and ended up training in a Karate School in the town of Biella (sort of north of Torino).

While there, a tournament came along, and I thought "why not?" and entered. The tournaments were mostly all Shotokan guys - but it was frigging HUGE. This was a local tournament, yet the scale was beyond a national competition held here in the states. I think they have fewer tournaments, so for the ones they have, the attendance is higher.

Anyway, in just my division there was well over 100 competitors.. probably closer to 200. The competition lasted over 2 days. I made it into the second day but got injured and had to drop out.

The way I got injured speaks to ralphmcpherson's quote above.

In US competition, an inside sweep to the leg / knee is not allowed (due to the high injury rate I think). Anyway, I knew this (first thing to do when you go into a open tournament is learn the rules), and was prepared. What I was doing was floating my lead leg (the leg they were more likely to sweep), letting the sweep take it up - then I would fold my knee and deliver a quick lead leg (the leg that was sweeped) round kick to their head followed by some strong punches to their upper torso. This was working well...

Until..

I got caught flat footed with my weight on that leg. I was tired, beat up, etc. This was the second day of constant competition, and I was pretty much head to toe bruises and sore muscles. My body was depleted and I was exhausted.

Anyway my opponent came in with a really strong / fast rear leg sweep to the inside of my left front leg. My foot stayed on the floor and my knee gave way. Major dislocation of my knee... while I was standing with all my weight on it.

Man that hurt.

Anyway - I got to experience socialized medicine in Italy.. and knee surgery when I got back to the states.

The thing is, this was a rule I wasn't used to. In spite of my injury, I believe this was a good experience for me as a martial artist. I learned a lot. Expanded my horizons.

Up until then I was having fun.. the way tournaments are supposed to be. I was meeting new people - talking to them, learning from them, and sharing experiences. For me, that's what competition is all about.

The dislocation... not so much fun though.

 

[Thesemindz]

Knee injuries are no fun. And they really change your perception of training. I destroyed my knee last year, and it's been a completely new challenge to get back on the mat. I wish I'd never hurt it, but I've learned so much from the experience. I guess that's the best I can hope for.

But now I really emphasize protecting your knees with my students. I always did, but I have a whole new understanding now. One I don't want my students to have to share.


-Rob

 

[tinker1]

Knee injuries are no fun. And they really change your perception of training. I destroyed my knee last year, and it's been a completely new challenge to get back on the mat. I wish I'd never hurt it, but I've learned so much from the experience. I guess that's the best I can hope for.

But now I really emphasize protecting your knees with my students. I always did, but I have a whole new understanding now. One I don't want my students to have to share.


-Rob

I had to wear a brace for a couple months, and then started training again. I was still spooked about my knee for quite a while though. Funny how the memory of pain can influence you. After a year+ or so I had the (arthroscopic) surgery as my knee was still giving me pain and "ticking" when I moved it. That laid me up for several months after that.

I started doing form as a way to get my knee rehabbed, and that worked pretty well. I was still spooked when sparring for quite a while after that. Heck - I still am careful with it.

I did re-enter competition for about 6 months in 88 or 89.. I think just to prove to myself that I could do it. The pleasure I got out of it was diminished though.

 

[puunui]

In open tournaments, you could go against a ShotoKan guy in your first match, then maybe a Kajakimbo guy.. then a Kuksulwon guy.. then a Kenpo guy.. then a GungFu guy.. on and on it goes.

But don't all those competitors from different styles end up looking the same at some point, at least the good one who win?

 

[puunui]

I got caught flat footed with my weight on that leg. I was tired, beat up, etc. This was the second day of constant competition, and I was pretty much head to toe bruises and sore muscles. My body was depleted and I was exhausted.
Anyway my opponent came in with a really strong / fast rear leg sweep to the inside of my left front leg. My foot stayed on the floor and my knee gave way. Major dislocation of my knee... while I was standing with all my weight on it. Man that hurt. Anyway - I got to experience socialized medicine in Italy.. and knee surgery when I got back to the states.

Can you still see the face of your opponent that swept your back leg? When your knee hurts, do you ever think about that competitor or that day when you hurt your knee?

 

[puunui]

I'm 51 years old now, when I was much younger I fought in open points style tournaments against every possible style that existed in the 70's and 80's. Then I got a serious beat down by a short but powerful and lightning fast WTF/Kukkiwon/Jidokwan Korean master who spoke no English. My days of mish mash style dabbling was over.

Personally, I think competition under the WTF Rules is harder than self defense.

 

[puunui]

Wow, that is very interesting. I never knew you were training anyone for that, but I always viewed Hawaii as both a bastion for original mixed martial arts, and "traditional" so I guess the two groups mixing is bound to happen their if anywhere.
What percent of your students are into that?

I have four or five who cross train in GJJ and other stuff. They wanted to get into MMA competition so we figured out the best strategies to dealing with what was out there. One thing we wanted to neutralize was punching, because even the weakest striker generally has that overhand right which they might get lucky with. We wanted to substantially reduce the probability of that person winning the lottery so to speak. I have two students who have their own clubs who also send their students to MMA tournaments. It is not something we focus on. We just do it for fun.

 

[tinker1]

But don't all those competitors from different styles end up looking the same at some point, at least the good one who win?
and
Can you still see the face of your opponent that swept your back leg? When your knee hurts, do you ever think about that competitor or that day when you hurt your knee?

1.
It is true that people compete within the rules, and so to a degree people tend to spar in a similar way. But only to a degree. TKD guys still kick predominately. Kenpo guys kick low and have blazing hand speed. Kajakimbo and Karate guys have that fierce reverse punch that will break your ribs - easy as pie.. Shotokan guys never. ever. back up. So, yes we spar in a similar way because the rules we follow are the framework we all have to follow. However, each style has a flavor and a preference.

2.
No. I hold no grudge toward him at all. Heck.. earlier in the tournament I kicked a guy in the face with a lead round kick and splattered his nose all over his face. (I got a warning) So I have no grounds to complain.

I should have been more alert. Moved around more. Trained harder. No one's at fault. These things happen in tournaments, you know that's a possibility when you sign up.