Twin Fist
Grandmaster
dont need basics to stand there bouncing with yoru hands down terry
olympics
THATS what happened to basics
olympics
THATS what happened to basics
Basics and where did the go
- Thread starter terryl965
- Start date
StagTown
Yellow Belt
unfortunatly I have to agree! Iv just left a club and some very good friends as the trainings become to sport for me, what was once a well balanced 5 hours over a week as become at least 80% sport TKD! it didnt take long before the discipline declined and basics/poomse standards dropped dramatically.........it became so painful trying to teach mid grades week one basics correctly and them not wanting to learn the stuff anyways made me decide it was time to move on.
tinker1
Green Belt
I am an artifact. I LOVE doing basics. When I teach classes other than those centered on self defense (at other schools usually), at least a third of the class consists of basics.
There is a thing called intrinsic motivation. I feel it when I do basics or form - techniques where I am concentrating on how my body feels as I do the drill. I love that feeling you get as power flows through your body when the technique is executed properly.
Couple stories.
First. When I was going through the TKD ranks at GM Dan Choi's school, one of my instructors was a fellow named Tony Thompson. He told us that when he was going through the pre-black belt ranks that he was really looking forward to getting his black belt - because he thought that then he would get past doing all these basics...
So after he passed his 1st Dan, the VERY NEXT class with GM Choi, he was really excited. "oh boy - time for the GOOD stuff.." He said that the first black belt class he had THE ENTIRE CLASS WAS ALL BASICS.
That was all they did. He said that he realized that basics are the foundation of the art. Just like a building has a foundation - you never neglect it. You maintain and build on it constantly, make sure it's strong - everything in your art rests on it.
Next story.
Two of my students - brothers, trained with me from the time they were 13 or 14 until they went away to University. They were great kids, and fantastic students. After they left for University I lost contact with them.
Well, about 2 years ago I found them on facebook, and we got to talking. They are both successful doctors - one a chiropractor, the other a physical therapist. They each are married and have a brood of kids.
Strangely enough, they live near my daughter's family. Last year my daughter gave us a GrandSon - so I went out to see her and her new family. While there I went out to breakfast with these two old students of mine.
After they left my school, the attended the University of California at Berkeley. While at Berkeley they attended the University TKD classes. One comment they made was "You drilled us so hard on basics, our foundation was so strong, that we were ROCK STARS over there..".
Ok, that's a really long story for the sake of one comment. Sorry about that. When you're old like me, you're filled with stories..
There is a thing called intrinsic motivation. I feel it when I do basics or form - techniques where I am concentrating on how my body feels as I do the drill. I love that feeling you get as power flows through your body when the technique is executed properly.
Couple stories.
First. When I was going through the TKD ranks at GM Dan Choi's school, one of my instructors was a fellow named Tony Thompson. He told us that when he was going through the pre-black belt ranks that he was really looking forward to getting his black belt - because he thought that then he would get past doing all these basics...
So after he passed his 1st Dan, the VERY NEXT class with GM Choi, he was really excited. "oh boy - time for the GOOD stuff.." He said that the first black belt class he had THE ENTIRE CLASS WAS ALL BASICS.
That was all they did. He said that he realized that basics are the foundation of the art. Just like a building has a foundation - you never neglect it. You maintain and build on it constantly, make sure it's strong - everything in your art rests on it.
Next story.
Two of my students - brothers, trained with me from the time they were 13 or 14 until they went away to University. They were great kids, and fantastic students. After they left for University I lost contact with them.
Well, about 2 years ago I found them on facebook, and we got to talking. They are both successful doctors - one a chiropractor, the other a physical therapist. They each are married and have a brood of kids.
Strangely enough, they live near my daughter's family. Last year my daughter gave us a GrandSon - so I went out to see her and her new family. While there I went out to breakfast with these two old students of mine.
After they left my school, the attended the University of California at Berkeley. While at Berkeley they attended the University TKD classes. One comment they made was "You drilled us so hard on basics, our foundation was so strong, that we were ROCK STARS over there..".
Ok, that's a really long story for the sake of one comment. Sorry about that. When you're old like me, you're filled with stories..
tinker1
Green Belt
It strikes me as I think about this - that there is a good portion of the arts that just isn't taught anymore.
I was just thinking about windmill block. When was the last time any saw that taught in class?
I taught the Palgue forms at my school - Master Koo changed them to Tae Geuk (which I deplore). Anyway, when I taught forms - after the student learned the moves, I would run through what techniques were buried in the forms as a way to get the students to put more energy into the forms and get more enjoyment out of doing them.
In Palgue 1, on the way up the "I", there are 3 back stance based inside blocks followed by a middle punch at the top. Although there are many interpretations of these moves, I taught that these were windmill blocks, and demonstrated their use.
In my first PKA fight (3 round amateur) I got a knockout by setting my opponent up with windmill blocks. They work. But you don't see anyone teaching them anymore.
I also don't see Iron hand / body being taught any more - or any thing about Ki really. Crane's neck strike either for that matter.
Without basics or form, how will anyone learn spear hand, or palm or knife hand strikes? These aren't allowed in competition, so no one bothers with them any more.
I was just thinking about windmill block. When was the last time any saw that taught in class?
I taught the Palgue forms at my school - Master Koo changed them to Tae Geuk (which I deplore). Anyway, when I taught forms - after the student learned the moves, I would run through what techniques were buried in the forms as a way to get the students to put more energy into the forms and get more enjoyment out of doing them.
In Palgue 1, on the way up the "I", there are 3 back stance based inside blocks followed by a middle punch at the top. Although there are many interpretations of these moves, I taught that these were windmill blocks, and demonstrated their use.
In my first PKA fight (3 round amateur) I got a knockout by setting my opponent up with windmill blocks. They work. But you don't see anyone teaching them anymore.
I also don't see Iron hand / body being taught any more - or any thing about Ki really. Crane's neck strike either for that matter.
Without basics or form, how will anyone learn spear hand, or palm or knife hand strikes? These aren't allowed in competition, so no one bothers with them any more.
OP
OP
This has nothing to do with Olympics sparring, I have students that come from ITF backgrounds that do not know proper stances or puches. Just for the record even in Olympic sparring you need th basic to be a great competitor like any other sport.
Why do people always want to diss a sport when we are talking about TKD? Also why is it I see so many point sparrer with there hands down and throwing the punches from there sides? :erg:
dancingalone
Grandmaster
'Rare' techniques like windmill and knife hand blocks are staples in my lessons. They are useful entry techniques to enable you to close, trap, and connect with the opponent.
Body conditioning is unfortunately unpopular these days. Any instructor worth his salt knows about it, but good luck getting the students to pick up the practice.
Yup. Lost in the sport vs. traditional debates is this particular nuance. There are entire areas of martial technique and training methods which are not particularly useful for winning matches, so they frequently are discarded entirely.
dancingalone
Grandmaster
It's likely a baiting technique, where the guy with his hands down is trying to draw an attack to his head zone.
<shrugs> I don't think anyone would argue that point fighting is particularly useful or applicable to self-defense practice either. It's a game which can be fun to play. This is coming from someone who point sparred a lot as a youngster.
I think there's merit to sparring, personally, just because you're delivering hits on and taking hits from a (generally) similarly skilled opponent. Also, you're getting used to being hit and dealing with the guard, distance, things like that. Plus building something I like to call a "fight IQ." Outside of that, not really.
Also, MaxiMe, congrats on your purple and your daughter's brown, and keep that attitude about basics. Solid mid-belts are a beautiful thing.
tinker1
Green Belt
LOL. I do this sometimes when I am "playing with" a first or second degree black belt when sparring.
Sometimes I put my hands on my hips and just stand in a neutral way and watch them. They get confused. When they then attack I use interceptions and "take the middle" sparring style.
Not sure what other instructors call any of that... but you close on your opponent, and when he goes to strike you intercept the technique before it develops any power.. in "take the middle", you extend your arms a bit forward so that you claim the space between you and your opponent.. intercept and strike... frustrates the heck out of them. LOL
One of the last bar room scuffles I got into I knew this drunk guy was angry and just looking for someone - anyone - to punch. So when he targeted me, I closed the distance between us.. and when he started to throw (the predictable) hay-maker right, I just reached out and pushed his right shoulder. He stumbled backward and looked surprised. I calmly said "you really don't want to do that.." and (surprisingly) he seemed to agree and went away.
dancingalone
Grandmaster
Depends on what you mean by the term of sparring. I don't particularly consider point sparring to be much more than an organized game of tag. People frequently lunge wildly at each other and break body structure to get in a glancing blow, one that is utterly useless for real effects but will be awarded a point in competition.
For all the flak Olympic sparring gets, I believe there is far more technical prowess displayed in an Olympic rules match than in a typical point sparring contest.
tinker1
Green Belt
Point sparring has degraded a lot over the years. You can point to a lot of possible reasons for this.. pads, safety, law suits...
In the before time... before pads and all that. You had to strike to the body but have more control with blows to the head. What's missing now is that you also could not be completely extended when you delivered your strike. You had to still have some more range you could push the technique - that would cause much more damage if you were to do so. Now you can be completely laid out and if the end of your glove comes within 2" of your target, it's a point. Not so in the old days.
Thank you. Not all tournaments are the same.
mastercole
Master Black Belt
Just my point of view, not aimed at any particular one person.
It's because the people who dis it, likely fear it. They would never attempt to participate in Olympic Taekwondo because their skill is not good enough or they don't have the knowledge. Instead they can make snide comments about it and give all kinds of bravado reasons why they won't try it and never will, it's a cop out. You never see them put their money where their mouth is. Most I find are weekend seminar warriors.
People who train for Olympic sparring train, then fight in the ring to hone their skills. That takes a lot of spirit, not just talk. People who dis it, don't usually fight anywhere, just on discussion boards, aka no spirit.
mastercole
Master Black Belt
Are you talking about "point karate"? I did not think this still exist in Taekwondo circles as far as tournament events are concerned.
ralphmcpherson
Senior Master
I know a lot of people who dis it and do fight. I can see where you are coming from, but Ive heard many many MMA folks dis it and I think its safe to say they dont "fear it", they just dont like it. I dont like bjj for instance, I tried it and it just wasnt for me, it doesnt mean I fear it. I think its quite understandable that many people dont like olympic sparring and thats their choice. I have the complete respect for olympic tkd sparring, but I dont like it and I can assure you I dont fear it. I am the first to admit that I would suck at it because I dont train it, but I certainly dont fear it.
dancingalone
Grandmaster
That's likely some of the people. But not all. You don't have to be afraid of something or completely ignorant about it to determine that it's not for you.
At the same time, you might be surprised by the caliber of people who might be following a different MA path than Olympic style TKD athletes. I know a few people who train every bit as seriously as TKD national team members, albeit in different things. In their own domain, they are very formidable.
ralphmcpherson
Senior Master
My point exactly. There are many things in life that I dont like, it doesnt mean I 'fear' them, they are just not for me.
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