Tai Chi Training

[Xue Sheng]

In Tung Ying Chieh's red book he talks about the time it takes to understand the slow form, basic push hands, energy, applications and sword form. Which he says takes a total of 3 years to have a good understanding of hand forms weapons forms, self defense and push hands.

But all of this is based on seeing your Sifu and training 7 days a week for hours a day for that 3 years. He also says this time varies depending on how often you see your sifu and or train. So it is probably better to say that you develop an understanding of the slow form, basic push hands, energy, applications and sword form after 1095 days of training. He also mentions that you have to multiply this time of 3 years depending on how often you practice and how many classes are attended.

So if you practice only 1 day a week in class it will likely take about 21 years. Train 5 a week and you are roughly at 4.2 years but the amount of time training and the quality of that training are also important.

It is after this you get into training the spear, broad sword and advanced push hands which takes about another year. Then after what amounts to 6 total years of training you are ready for the advanced stages of Tai Chi training which is concerned with spirit, awareness and Qi.

He also says there are no shortcuts, “Gong fu is developed only through hard work and time”

Now in spirit I tend to agree with this, particularly the part that says you must work hard and take the time because there are no shortcuts.

I was just wondering what others thoughts on the matter were.

 

[East Winds]

Xue Sheng,

Could not agree more. What an intuitive teacher Tung was. The trouble with Westerners is that we want everything NOW!!! That is also why there are so many poor teachers out there. They have not spent the time to really learn their system thoroughly. Many people think that by learning the sequence of moves of the form, they are doing taiji!!! The first 3 or 4 years I was in the CMA's I was in "Form Collecting" mode. I attended every seminar I could. I worked with well respected teachers whenever I could. I "learned" Taiji (Yang and Chen), Bagua, Xing-Yi, Liu Ho Ba Fa, Sword, Sabre, Fan, Zhan Zhuang, Yi- Chuan etc. It took me another 6 years to realise that most of what I knew was superficial. When I met my current teacher some 6 years ago, I was shown a depth of taijiquan that I never knew existed. I now concentrate soley on Traditonal Yang Family Taijiquan and Zhan Zhuang. I do not have time to practise anything else. (Apart from Yang 68 Sword and Yang 13 Sabre).

I have a new enthusiasm for my Taiji and although I still have a huge amount to learn, I am now in no hurry to get there. I have realised that the goal is not to get to the end of the road, but to take my time and look at the wonderful scenery along the way.

Very best wishes

 

[Laoshi77]

I agree with 'East Winds' as it is certainly difficult to find the time to train all that one may know. Furthermore, I believe, it can be rather confusing to learn too much, for instance certain movements flow into other applications endlessly. In conclusion, I think the principle and fundamental movements/applications have more than enough to help one understand the application. I was always told to forget the form and focus on the function.

Initially my learning contributed on the medtiational side to understand Taijiquan better, I was instructed to spend literally hours a day standing in meditation before I could learn forms.

Many of my teachers and other masters/writers on Taiqiquan also focus that this aspect is imperative to training.

 

[Randy Strausbaugh]

When you think about it though, Taijiquan is a lifetime's study. Where you are is where you are, no matter how often you attend class. Given the variability of the quality of instruction (especially in this country), trying to figure out what level you are at becomes problematic at best. I figure rather than worry about how good I am, I just keep on training. Progress will come in time, and I have set no limit to the amount of time which I will allow myself to attain any certain level. I'm going to be doing this the rest of my life anyway, so what the heck.
JMHO

 

[Xue Sheng]

I agree, thank you for the responses.

Tai Chi is a life long study and I do not feel that Tung would disagree.

I too started my CMA, to use Eastwinds words, as a forms collector. My first sifu taught me a lot of stuff but nothing in dept (well there was one form with depth, but only one, but that is another post), but I was lucky enough to find my Yang Style sifu about 12 years ago and it is amazing what tai chi has taught me and still does.

IF, I had trained as Tung says I would still not know everything, I just do not think it is possible.

I will say since reading Tung's book I have changed my trainind and tried to do my long form at least 2 times a day with a goal of 3, plus the other forms I know and do.

This has improved my form immensely, or at least I feel it has .

And STILL my sifu says "form is fine... but not low enough"

 

[kimballmaster]

Kimball Lesson Transcription, Feb. 19 2006 [soundtrack: Fight Club]

Roll Back explanation:
1. Hold the baby's butt
2. Cradle the head and the back
3. Always obtuse / Never acute

hand swinging behind, other hand moving to be next to ear: "ear
looking at the hand"

"You're a little tired today, use that as a tool. Use the tiredness
to drop and do less, as if you're doing your exercises in high school
gym class and the teacher's not looking at you. Use your tiredness
to improve your tai chi."

"I'm sorry I'm so rude, it's because I'm from Skokie."

"Most of your mistakes are going to be from doing too much, never
from doing too little. Usually it's that you're trying too hard or
doing too many things."

"Don't worry, because you're going to be living these forms for the
next 40 years. Make it easy to get to."

"What you're doing is learning to redevelop your association with
other people's electronics. You move with me by default. One of the
pieces is modifying the way the opponent views your electrical
impulses. What they see is not as important as what is happening.
The point of reference is a lie."

"The circle must be complete for the power to remain constant. Like
push hands, everywhere you touch, gets thrown back out, like a
chopstick from a fan."

When tired / fatigued / hung over, one of the best times to practice,
because there's no emotional content. Just the form, just the
physical movements, empty.

"I'm teaching you to miss, by giving you a place to hit. The
Deceivers. That's why I call what I teach 'the Lost Track of It,'
because people lose track of it, of what's going on."

"Use your emotional content to teach me to push into you harder, then
don't be there. Tell you're there, then lie. Here comes my
emotional content, which is balancing yours. What you do is invest
in loss and let me win."

"You're gonna find that tai chi bleeds into the rest of your life,
and it's just so nice to have something that's real. What I mean by
real is accurate. I'm not making a mistake by saying 'true', people
will die for the truth. No one dies for accuracy. They'll kill you
over truth."

"Don't look the opponent in the eye, look at their chin. Looking
them in the eye, looking into their soul, this makes it much harder
to see out of your periphery."

"See the exceptions so you can identify the rule."

"Get it so the opponent's mind believes you're pulling them on top of
you (roll back), then push them off to the side--deceiving them."

"What is the highest level of arrogance? Indifference."

"When you start off in tai chi, focusing on the spiritual level, what
the heck is that? So we keep trying to focus down to the lowest
level. In my heart, I want everyone to love and respect me. Beating
them up is not going to do that. So my deepest desires are not to
fight. But it's the lowest level, which means we can get the
most information out of it, that is tangible. When you start getting
these spiritual things happening, I'm gonna ask you not to tell me,
becaue it's so subtle, if you try and say them sometimes it messes
them up."

"Start looking at these things from the lowest level. If you can't
ride a bike, you shouldn't be flying a jet."

Four levels of tai chi:
1. fighting
2. health
3. spirituality
4. fun

 

[Steel Tiger]

In Tung Ying Chieh's red book he talks about the time it takes to understand the slow form, basic push hands, energy, applications and sword form. Which he says takes a total of 3 years to have a good understanding of hand forms weapons forms, self defense and push hands.

But all of this is based on seeing your Sifu and training 7 days a week for hours a day for that 3 years. He also says this time varies depending on how often you see your sifu and or train. So it is probably better to say that you develop an understanding of the slow form, basic push hands, energy, applications and sword form after 1095 days of training. He also mentions that you have to multiply this time of 3 years depending on how often you practice and how many classes are attended.

So if you practice only 1 day a week in class it will likely take about 21 years. Train 5 a week and you are roughly at 4.2 years but the amount of time training and the quality of that training are also important.

It is after this you get into training the spear, broad sword and advanced push hands which takes about another year. Then after what amounts to 6 total years of training you are ready for the advanced stages of Tai Chi training which is concerned with spirit, awareness and Qi.

He also says there are no shortcuts, “Gong fu is developed only through hard work and time”

Now in spirit I tend to agree with this, particularly the part that says you must work hard and take the time because there are no shortcuts.

I was just wondering what others thoughts on the matter were.

This reminds me of an old gong fu proverb I heard that stuck in my mind.

"100 days for the hand, 1000 days for the spear, 10000 days for the sword"

Now that is training every day for who knows how many hours. I refer to it when teaching my students. We train once a week so you get about 100 weeks of training to be proficient with unarmed combat. Not mastery, just proficiency. That's two years, more likely three as we probably don't train as many hours as the proverb expects.

By the way that's twenty years or so for the sword (jien).