Yang Style Tai Chi; is it dead?

[Xue Sheng]

One final thing.

When I first put this post up I was not certain if Yang Style Tai Chi was truly dead as a marital art. Ever since my trip to China I am thoroughly convinced that it is, or soon will be.

Face it we are hopelessly outnumbered.

There are a few of us diehards still practicing Yang as an MA, and as far as I can tell all of on MT that train Traditional Yang style are. However there are so few of us that do practice it as an MA by comparison to the heath and spiritual people that I believe the state of true traditional Yang style is at best terminal.

In the parks in Beijing I saw few Chen stylists and Wu stylists, but they all looked very good and very serious. I even saw 1 Sun stylist, but never doing Sun I cannot judge how good or bad he was.

However I saw hundreds of people doing Yang style 24 being taught by teachers that were way to stiff or just plain wrong. I only saw 3 older gentlemen (between 60 and 70) doing traditional Yang style. If you divide the traditional by the hundreds doing 24 you get a number so close to zero, mathematically it could be considered zero.

Add to this my former teacher who 12 years ago was angered by competition Yang and the people teaching that did not know the art and that were not teaching push hands or the martial arts. A teacher that was entirely against the use of music in the class because it distracted from the training and he turned into all he despised to gain students.

He does know the art but will no longer teach any depth and he has lost all of his senior students but there are a bunch of people that bring in videos of other styles to watch, stand around talking about the power of crystals that abhor violence (and of course all things martial art are violent). Their form is bad their understanding is shallow and to see what this class and this teacher has become is extremely sad. The last I heard he was being pressured by his new senior students to start playing music.

These 2 things together thoroughly convince me that the MA people of Yang style are a dying breed, we are going extinct and when we go or give in the art is one step closer to dead, but in the end I feel it will die.

Now this being said, I have never been one to lie down and let things roll over me. I have never followed the crowd and I do not intend to give up now, I’m too old and to stubborn to do that, although when I first posted this I was considering it. I would like to thank the MT people for showing me how silly I was being for even thinking that.

I will still train the MA side of Yang style and if I go back to teaching I will, as I did before, make all my students aware that it is a martial art. I will not force anyone to learn the martial arts side but I will not stop teaching it to those that want to know just because someone is offended by what they perceive as violence. I am looking into continuing my training with another teacher who is supposedly equally as good or better than my teacher was, the downside, he is considerably further away, 4 hours to be exact, so it would be once a month and an all day deal, but time will tell.

I once had a guy tell say to me “I do NOT do martial arts, I DO Tai Chi” back then I just thought he was an arrogant idiot and I walked away from him. Today he is more representative of the people playing at Tai Chi, hopefully I still have the calmness to walk away from him and not tell him he is an arrogant idiot, should we ever cross paths again…part of me hopes I don’t.

To those of you still training Traditional Yang with the Martial Arts intact. :asian:

To those of you practicing Yang style for other reasons I wish you all the best.

 

[CrushingFist]

such a good post man, I have to agree with you ..

 

[pstarr]

I agree! And I still teach Taiji as a MARTIAL art...not simply as a health maintenance exercise, a touchy-feely all fuzzy inside routine, or an exotic form of getting in touch with your inner self.

Nope. To me it's a MARTIAL art or nothing at all...

 

[CrushingFist]

All the good things taijiquan talks about when I read about it, then its so hard to find a good teacher that will teach taijiquan as a whole without forgetting anything, I've read that 1 cant be done properly without the other, so excluding the martial or excluding the spiritual will not benefit you as much as if you would practice it as it really is martial the spiritual side will follow along and both combined will include health right?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T'ai_Chi_Ch'uan Like it says there, Martial, Meditation and Health

 

[Xue Sheng]

All the good things taijiquan talks about when I read about it, then its so hard to find a good teacher that will teach taijiquan as a whole without forgetting anything, I've read that 1 cant be done properly without the other, so excluding the martial or excluding the spiritual will not benefit you as much as if you would practice it as it really is martial the spiritual side will follow along and both combined will include health right?

BINGO!!!

If you train Tai Chi MA form a qualified, knowledgeable teacher it is all there, it is intrinsic.

But it is moving mediation, it is for health, it is to slow to be a MA, it is non-violent, it is all about the spirituality, it is for heath......nope! It's a martial art and if you train the martial art of Tai Chi with a teacher that know what he or she is doing and what Tai Chi is, you will gain health, you will gain a type of understanding and you will be damn good at defending yourself too.

Pardon the philosophical tone, but if you cut the root the tree will die, if you remove the bark the tree will die and Tai Chi, particularly Yang is dying. Remove any of its parts and it becomes something other than Tai Chi. I did a post on Tai Chi Chih once, this is not tai Chi, nor do they claim to be, but if you remove the Martial Art from Tai Chi it becomes Tai Chi Chih or Qigong for heath...not tai chi.

You have a bunch of people running around claiming great lineages, and they have them, but they never did learn the true art. I once talked to the recognized head of one of the Tai Chi families (not Yang) and I got the impression that he would teach very different in America than he does in China. In his opinion most Americans do not want to know Tai Chi, it's just a hobby to them, they just want to be able to say they trained with him and go off and teach it as a health practice that is it. If any of those Americans really wanted to learn real Tai Chi they would go to him in China.

But Yang style is dying world wide, mainly due to a martialartsectomy, and as long as we can we need to keep it alive, but it will eventually die....Just not because of me.

 

[East Winds]

Xue Sheng,

Don't lose heart. There are some of us here in the UK (students of Coach Christopher Pei of the US Wushu Academy) who are learning and teaching Traditional Yang Family Taijiquan as a martial art. Our lineage (and teachings) come from Yang Zhen Ji (2nd son of Yang Cheng-fu) who is still alive and teaching in China. Coach Pei is a lineaged Master, confered by Yang Zhen Ji and Yang Zhen Duo.

As for the question about Yang Zhen Guo, he was the fourth son of Yang Chen-fu therefore the youngest son. (There were four sons : Yang Zhen Ming who went to Hong Kong and only produced daughters some of whom are still teaching his form, Yang Zhen Ji who had no family, Yang Zhen Duo who adopted two sons, Yang Dao Fang who's son is Yang Jun and Yang De Fang. The fourth son (Yang Zhen Guo) stayed in China but as far as I know did little teaching. He produced Yang Yong Fang, Yang Jun Fang, Yang Juan Fang and Yang Hong Fang. I don't know if they teach.

Sorry for the long reply but hope this fills in some of the direct Yang Family tree for you.

Keep pushing Yang taijiquan. we are certainly doing so in the UK

Very best wishes

 

[Xue Sheng]

Xue Sheng,

Don't lose heart. There are some of us here in the UK (students of Coach Christopher Pei of the US Wushu Academy) who are learning and teaching Traditional Yang Family Taijiquan as a martial art. Our lineage (and teachings) come from Yang Zhen Ji (2nd son of Yang Cheng-fu) who is still alive and teaching in China. Coach Pei is a lineaged Master, confered by Yang Zhen Ji and Yang Zhen Duo.

As for the question about Yang Zhen Guo, he was the fourth son of Yang Chen-fu therefore the youngest son. (There were four sons : Yang Zhen Ming who went to Hong Kong and only produced daughters some of whom are still teaching his form, Yang Zhen Ji who had no family, Yang Zhen Duo who adopted two sons, Yang Dao Fang who's son is Yang Jun and Yang De Fang. The fourth son (Yang Zhen Guo) stayed in China but as far as I know did little teaching. He produced Yang Yong Fang, Yang Jun Fang, Yang Juan Fang and Yang Hong Fang. I don't know if they teach.

Sorry for the long reply but hope this fills in some of the direct Yang Family tree for you.

Keep pushing Yang taijiquan. we are certainly doing so in the UK

Very best wishes

I am glad to here it, I believe there may be a group in France too.

As for loosing heart, I was at the beginning of this post, but now I'm starting to get angry at those that are killing the style.

Thanks

PS
Doesn't Yang Zhen Ji live in Hong Kong?

 

[East Winds]

Xue Sheng,

No, Yang Zhen Ji still lives (and teaches) in Handan in the south of Hebei Province.

I know what you mean about getting angry. There is some very poor stuff masquerading as "Yang" style taiji here in the UK. Still, its up to people like us to keep banging on about it and to keep showing the "real" stuff.

Very best wishes and keep up the good work.

 

[pstarr]

Over forty years ago, my own teacher said that even in China (at that time) there were so-called "masters" who wouldn't teach the full art. He said they were "strangling" it.

He hit it right on the head.

Quite honestly, I think that many Chinese teachers have discovered that the U.S. is a massive "cash cow" and even if they know only a portion of the full art, they're going to string it out as long as possible to keep the money rolling in.

This is dishonest and dishonorable but even so, it can be next to impossible to convince a lot of people (who are paying through the nose for "authentic" lineage-based instruction) otherwise.

As you already know, genuine Taijiquan (the martial art) training is very rigorous. Many people don't want to have to go through that kind of training. They prefer to believe the tale that they can become invincible fighters without having to sweat...

 

[Xue Sheng]

Xue Sheng,

No, Yang Zhen Ji still lives (and teaches) in Handan in the south of Hebei Province.

I know what you mean about getting angry. There is some very poor stuff masquerading as "Yang" style taiji here in the UK. Still, its up to people like us to keep banging on about it and to keep showing the "real" stuff.

Very best wishes and keep up the good work.

Thank You

My wife has relatives in Hebei, not sure if they are anywhere near Handan though.

Thanks again

 

[Xue Sheng]

Over forty years ago, my own teacher said that even in China (at that time) there were so-called "masters" who wouldn't teach the full art. He said they were "strangling" it.

He hit it right on the head.

Quite honestly, I think that many Chinese teachers have discovered that the U.S. is a massive "cash cow" and even if they know only a portion of the full art, they're going to string it out as long as possible to keep the money rolling in.

This is dishonest and dishonorable but even so, it can be next to impossible to convince a lot of people (who are paying through the nose for "authentic" lineage-based instruction) otherwise.

As you already know, genuine Taijiquan (the martial art) training is very rigorous. Many people don't want to have to go through that kind of training. They prefer to believe the tale that they can become invincible fighters without having to sweat...

I have to agree with you, and it is a very sad but true fact. Many martial artists from other countries see the US as exactly that "a cash cow"

And most American’s eat it right up, well my teacher was.....And it means nothing.

I know Tai Chi.....and they show you the traditional large frame Yang style form....but they know nothing beyond the form

And it is this "Cash cow" attitude that is helping killing many MAs.

I could point to a couple very good ones in Tai Chi that teach seminars in the US today, but I am not going to start naming individuals. And a few of their students are actually serious about the Tai Chi they do, but the others just want to be able to turn this around into a cash cow of their own. I learned form....now pay me.

And then there are those that just want to be able to say "I do Tai Chi" or believe that they are masters because they took a few classes and know a form or two.

Damn! I’m beginning to rant again…sorry about that.

 

[pstarr]

Nah, go ahead and rant...how do you REALLY feel? :mp5:

But I think it's important that those who have learned the martial aspect of the art do what they can to keep it alive-

So keep teaching!