Taekwondo: is it a sport or a martial art? ( again)

[Earl Weiss]

Originally Posted by Earl Weiss
Further, I did not mean to imply that the perceptions I have run across at non TKD events had anything to do with perceptions in Korea.
Puunui



I don't understand what you are trying to say here. My only point was comparing kukki taekwondoin to their own standards, and not your own.

I am saying that I am not usibng perceptions from Korea. For those who do not know where I am I am relating perceptions I have run across in the USA.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Originally Posted by Earl WeissI may be deluding myself but I really think many of the WTF rule set sparrers think they are prepared for the most common real world attack, the Punch to the face.

Puunui

Actually I believe it starts with a push to the chest.

Must be a Hawaii thing.

 

[Earl Weiss]

I think the main difference is that you are willing to judge kukki taekwondo without first understanding it.

IO hoped I made it clear i am judging WTF sparring not KK TKD.

What is it about not allowing punches to the head I don't understand?

 

[Earl Weiss]

"

Originally Posted by Earl WeissI have no issue with people getting what they want from an art. I have an issue with them thinking they are getting something when they are deluding themselves. When i see people demonstrating "Power" using BS boards. they are deluding themselves.

Mr. Sullivan,
How do you know what people think that they are getting? And I'm pretty sure your federation uses BS boards breaking as well."

Can I say absolutely positively it never happened? Of course not. I can say absolutley poistively if the powers that be found out they'd get ripped a new one. ( Also, Side fist and palm strikes are disallowed for power breaks. )

A while back I saw a new TKD school was opening and they were going to have a demo. I figured I'd watch and no one would know who I was . So, I came as it was in progress. (As it happened the owner had met me as had an instructor in the audience. As they commenced their BS Board breaking the obne in the audience turned to me and said "I know, you use real boards."

A student of mine is teaching at another school now. Interesting hybrid using KKW patterns but ITF style sparring. He said "you know what kind of boards they are using?

 

[chrispillertkd]

I didn't read his statement as a sweeping generalization. I thought he was saying that "BS" boards (I assume that means the thin "demo" style boards) could be found in ITF schools, as well as in non-taekwondo schools. I think you may be reading too much into his statement, or you may be reaching a bit. That's just the way I read it.

I'd agree with you if Daniel had said "BS boards are used by some ITF school, as well as non-Taekwon-Do schools." But he didn't, did he? He referred to Master Weiss' "organization." You don't say an "organization" does something if you mean a few schools within an oranization does something. If he'd like to go back and change his statement he can, but as it stands he made a very sweeping generalization directly after saying Master Weiss did so.

What's sauce for the goose and all that

Pax,

Chris

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I have no issue with people getting what they want from an art. I have an issue with them thinking they are getting something when they are deluding themselves.

Very good statement! This is an appropriate observation on many levels as well.

 

[jks9199]

Folks, let's keep it friendly. Leave the shots and snipes out, OK?

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Folks, let's keep it friendly. Leave the shots and snipes out, OK?

I must have missed something?

 

[Gorilla]

This is the best thread we have had for months....the BBS had become very boring...I am very glad that Puunnui and Kong Soo do are posting again and everyone else who adds to the discussion....I hope people aren't whining again...

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I'd agree with you if Daniel had said "BS boards are used by some ITF school, as well as non-Taekwon-Do schools." But he didn't, did he? He referred to Master Weiss' "organization." You don't say an "organization" does something if you mean a few schools within an oranization does something. If he'd like to go back and change his statement he can,

Jaeimseu got it easily enough. But for your benefit, and that of anyone else who isn't sure, I'm happy to rephrase it.

I'm pretty sure schools using BS boards happens in your federation. Happens with schools in karate, hapkido, and a whole slew of schools in other striking arts as well. This is hardly unique to the WTF.

Chris I didn't read his statement as a sweeping generalization. I thought he was saying that "BS" boards (I assume that means the thin "demo" style boards) could be found in ITF schools, as well as in non-taekwondo schools. I think you may be reading too much into his statement, or you may be reaching a bit. That's just the way I read it.

Of course you read it that way; you read it in the spirit in which it was intended.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I have no issue with people getting what they want from an art. I have an issue with them thinking they are getting something when they are deluding themselves. When i see people demonstrating "Power" using BS boards. they are deluding themselves.

How do you know what people think that they are getting? And I'm pretty sure your federation uses BS boards breaking as well."

Can I say absolutely positively it never happened? Of course not. I can say absolutley poistively if the powers that be found out they'd get ripped a new one. ( Also, Side fist and palm strikes are disallowed for power breaks.)

Which powers that be? I am not clear as to which federation you are a part of due to posts you made previously about one organization not allowing you membership simultaneously in another. I had thought that you were no longer ITF, but still practicing the same curriculum.

A while back I saw a new TKD school was opening and they were going to have a demo. I figured I'd watch and no one would know who I was . So, I came as it was in progress. (As it happened the owner had met me as had an instructor in the audience. As they commenced their BS Board breaking the obne in the audience turned to me and said "I know, you use real boards."

A student of mine is teaching at another school now. Interesting hybrid using KKW patterns but ITF style sparring. He said "you know what kind of boards they are using?

Were the boards in question at the demo thin, precut, or otherwise rigged to break? And was the "obne" (not sure what you mean by that) in the audience your student mentioned in the next paragraph? The way your narrative reads, it is unclear as to whether or not they are separate conversations.

The hybrid curriculum (taekguk pumse and ITF sparring) probably works quite well. It isn't my federation, but I do like ITF sparring. Lots of good stuff there.

How is his school doing?

 

[chrispillertkd]

Of course you read it that way; you read it in the spirit in which it was intended.

Then I'm sure you'll remember this when people make sweeping generalizations about the WTF or KKW, right? Because obviously the spirit of their posts will mean they refer to individual schools, not those organizations as a whole. Regardless of what they actually write

Pax,

Chris

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Then I'm sure you'll remember this when people make sweeping generalizations about the WTF or KKW, right? Because obviously the spirit of their posts will mean they refer to individual schools, not those organizations as a whole. Regardless of what they actually write

Pax,

Chris

Depends on the context, Chris. What they actually type is rather important.

Master Weiss used definitive language: 'all MA-ists and non MA-ists'. He made it pretty clear in his response that he stood by his comments and made no attempt to rephrase, so it seems that I did take in the spirit in which it was intended.

Had he chosen to make some clarification, or should he choose to, I will happily say, 'my bad' and thank him for clarifying. I do it with others here and they with me and feathers aren't ruffled.

 

[chrispillertkd]

Depends on the context, Chris. What they actually type is rather important.

Which is exactly my point. Which is also why I posted your two obviously conflicting statements (about how one shouldn't make sweeping generalizations and then how you made a sweeping generalization).

Master Weiss used definitive language: 'all MA-ists and non MA-ists'. He made it pretty clear in his response that he stood by his comments and made no attempt to rephrase, so it seems that I did take in the spirit in which it was intended.

You also used pretty definitive language in your post. I'm just glad that you've walked back your comment since if you didn't your post would've been self-contradictory.

Had he chosen to make some clarification, or should he choose to, I will happily say, 'my bad' and thank him for clarifying. I do it with others here and they with me and feathers aren't ruffled.

I don't think there are any feathers ruffled now. At least not on my part I actually thought your contradicting yourself was rather amusing!

Pax,

Chris

 

[ralphmcpherson]

This is the best thread we have had for months....the BBS had become very boring...I am very glad that Puunnui and Kong Soo do are posting again and everyone else who adds to the discussion....I hope people aren't whining again...

I agree, Gorilla, this has been a great thread. Im sure there will be some though saying "here we go again, havent we done this subject to death?". The fact this thread has gone for 12 pages proves its a subject people are quite passionate about.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Which powers that be? I am not clear as to which federation you are a part of due to posts you made previously about one organization not allowing you membership simultaneously in another. I had thought that you were no longer ITF, but still practicing the same curriculum.

No longer with the ITF . Although I do not know of any of the powers in the ITF V that would sanction the use of the BS boards for power breaks. This is part of competition and anf the standard is maintained. I am with the USTF . Senior GM Sereff and the 3 GM Board would be "Displeased" to say the least.


Were the boards in question at the demo thin, precut, or otherwise rigged to break? And was the "obne" (not sure what you mean by that) in the audience your student mentioned in the next paragraph? The way your narrative reads, it is unclear as to whether or not they are separate conversations.

The school owner was acquainted with me because his former instructor had me come in to do a Chang Hon pattern seminar and he was there. The other instructor in the audience had invited me to his school to observe a test. He was the one who said "I know you use real boards."


How is his school doing?

His school folded after a year. I am still friendly with his now former instructor whom he went into competition with .

 

[Earl Weiss]

If this figure is hard data, name a source who is "in the know" and where they get their figures. Is it the same source that provided the '90% of all fights go to the ground,' which is also bogus because the context represented as "all fights" was actually police officers apprehending suspects.


.

New thread started.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Master Weiss used definitive language: 'all MA-ists and non MA-ists'. He made it pretty clear in his response that he stood by his comments and made no attempt to rephrase, so it seems that I did take in the spirit in which it was intended.

Had he chosen to make some clarification, or should he choose to, I will happily say, 'my bad' and thank him for clarifying. I do it with others here and they with me and feathers aren't ruffled.

What I said was (post #126

"
Because for the most part only those in the WTF world appreciate the nuances of that type of sparring. (i can appreciate some of the nuances)

For the rest of the MA world and even the non MA world the general perception is that it looks stupid and establishes bad Self Defense habits. I share in that perception."

Note the "For the most part" and "General Perception" It is definitevely qualified

I stand by that characterization.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Never are these "nuances" more evident than during the olympics. If I had a dollar for every one of my mates who will say to me during the olympics "why do they just stand there bouncing" or "why dont they punch" or "why are their hands by their sides" etc, I'd be a millionaire. Im not knocking it, but its a ruleset only really appreciated by those that understand the finer points of the ruleset.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Never are these "nuances" more evident than during the olympics. If I had a dollar for every one of my mates who will say to me during the olympics "why do they just stand there bouncing" or "why dont they punch" or "why are their hands by their sides" etc, I'd be a millionaire. Im not knocking it, but its a ruleset only really appreciated by those that understand the finer points of the ruleset.

Do your mates ask similar questions of judo or wrestling (real wrestling, not WWE)? Or do they ask why in boxing why they don't do any grappling?