Taekwondo: is it a sport or a martial art? ( again)

[miguksaram]

The more I read this thread the more I am reminded of the term "Daja-poo" The feeling that we have stepped in this crap before. Thus far there has been nothing new added to this age old argument, which becons the question...why was this started again? Everyone is constantly challenging someone else's belief/definition of what a martial art is and what a martial sport is. This is just a @$$ hair away from saying your religion is wrong. It is apparent that you will not be able to change another's mind. At best you may clarify why you take the position you do. However, that only instigates people to challenges towards your view point.

So again...why?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

at best you may clarify why you take the position you do. However, that only instigates people to challenges towards your view point.

qft.

 

[puunui]

Last time I checked Pitchers had to catch and throw as well. At some level they also batted. So, no, there is no position that only pitches, never catches a balll, never batted, never had to do a throw other than pitch.

Well, if that is your standard, that at "some level they also batted", then elite level competitors who are training primarily for sparring competition fit that bill as well. As a general rule color belts all learn poomsae, just like as a general rule ball players did everything when they were in little league.

Rather than argue about who is right and who is wrong, I would instead like to focus on motivations or reasons for our positions. I chose to study and adopt the philosophies of the kukki taekwondo pioneers, who sacrificed much in order to unify. There are of the mindset that we should be inclusive in our viewpoint, that it is all taekwondo and that we can all come together as one.

Your background is studying the philosophy of General Choi, who made it his mission in later life to separate from kukki taekwondo and pronounce that only what he did was taekwon-do. So his viewpoint, and yours by extension, is more exclusionary. This is taekwon-do but that isn't, as so forth.

So who is right and who is wrong? If you are a kukki taekwondoin, then I would look towards the pioneers and their original intent about what is and isn't taekwondo. If you are a General Choi follower, then follow what he says. The problems arise when a kukki taekwondoin argues with a chang hon taekwon-do, each saying the other is wrong. Personally, the chang hon people are outside of my organization, so whatever you want to do or think is fine. However, if a chang hon taekwon-doin is interested in becoming part of kukki taekwondo, he will be welcomed in, because from the kukki taekwondo viewpoint, it is all taekwondo, and everyone is included, if they choose to be.

 

[Earl Weiss]

I would submit that General Choi sacrificed at least as much as any KK TKD pioneer to spread TKD.

I agree that it is a question of perspective.

I disagree that General Choi chose to seperate from KK TKD at least so far as KK TKD is viewed in the modern sense. Instead, AFAIAC KK TKD chose to seperate from Chang Hon.

(I know that from a technical historical perspective there was a KKW that may have existed before or along with the Chang Hon system and General Choi was involved with it, but I submit that the Modern 1973/74 incarnation along with the WTF is what the KKW is viewed as for the last 40 years as "The KKW" . From the "All encompassing" view I would imagine this is a distinction without difference.)

From the standpoint of one who does not spar with chest protectors and allows punches to the face, for the outside (Non TKD) observer if I am asked, I want them to know that is not what I do.

BTW I consider the KKW inclusiveness to be one of it's great strengths yet at the same time one of it's great weaknesses, while I consider the ITF exclusiveness to be one of it's great strengths and at the same time one of it's great weaknesses.

 

[puunui]

I would submit that General Choi sacrificed at least as much as any KK TKD pioneer to spread TKD.

I would say General Choi sacrificed more than any taekwondo pioneer. He sacrificed his country, and some would say his honor when he went to North Korea.

I disagree that General Choi chose to seperate from KK TKD at least so far as KK TKD is viewed in the modern sense. Instead, AFAIAC KK TKD chose to seperate from Chang Hon.

General Choi separated from kukki taekwondo when he resigned as KTA President and formed his own private ITF. In contrast, the kukki taekwondo pioneers continued with their inclusive philosophy by having the Oh Do Kwan Jang, GM HYUN Jong Myung, who was teaching the chang hon forms in the ROK Army, participate as one of the members of the KTA Ad Hoc Committee which created the Palgwae, Taeguek and Yudanja poomsae. The chang hon forms have been included in kukki taekwondo through the work of GM Hyun, and the Oh Do Kwan is one of the nine kwans which signed the declaration unifying under the Kukkiwon and its certification and standards. And why wouldn't the oh do kwan join in? Afterall, its interests were capably represented through the efforts of GM HYUN Jong Myung and other oh do kwan seniors, one of whom who served as the WTF Secretary General (GM KIM Bong Sik). An ITF member, Dr. Dong Ja YANG, served as USTU President and PATU President. And the list goes on and on.

(I know that from a technical historical perspective there was a KKW that may have existed before or along with the Chang Hon system and General Choi was involved with it, but I submit that the Modern 1973/74 incarnation along with the WTF is what the KKW is viewed as for the last 40 years as "The KKW" . From the "All encompassing" view I would imagine this is a distinction without difference.)

I don't understand what you are trying to say here. Also the Kukkiwon was founded on November 30, 1972, not 1973/74. The Kukkiwon was being built when General Choi fled the country, when plans for the 1st World Taekwondo Championships and the creation of the World Taekwondo Federation were already out there. Before the creation of the Kukkiwon building, there was the KTA Central Gymnasium, but mastercole knows more about that than me. You have to ask him to explain it.

From the standpoint of one who does not spar with chest protectors and allows punches to the face, for the outside (Non TKD) observer if I am asked, I want them to know that is not what I do.

Why is that important for them to know?

BTW I consider the KKW inclusiveness to be one of it's great strengths yet at the same time one of it's great weaknesses, while I consider the ITF exclusiveness to be one of it's great strengths and at the same time one of it's great weaknesses.

If it remained that black and white, then maybe. But it is a multi-step process, which I already explained. First step was to get everyone on board with respect to the name (taekwondo). Then it was to get everyone on board with respect to certification (kukkiwon certification). Next was to get everyone on board with respect to uniform and terminology. Next was to get everyone on board with respect to sparring competition, for inclusion in the Olympic Games. Last is to get everyone on board with respect to poomsae. All of the earlier steps have been achieved, for the most part throughout the world, and certainly in Korea. We are now on the latest stage, which is unification with respect to poomsae, through kukkiwon instructor courses, the hanmadang, and the WTF world poomsae championships.

Competition is what creates standardization. Watch the Olympic Games, everyone pretty much looks like everyone else when they are performing.

Is it perfect? Of course not. But I can see much more standardization at sparring competition under the WTF rules today, as compared to say, the 1988 Olympic Games. And poomsae standardization is also taking root throughout the world. The pioneers were very wise, highly intelligent people, who had a step by step plan for the development of taekwondo. And their plan is working. Taekwondo is more unified, inclusive and standardized today than at any time in our history.

How is the ITF doing?

 

[Earl Weiss]

Originally Posted by Earl Weiss
From the standpoint of one who does not spar with chest protectors and allows punches to the face, for the outside (Non TKD) observer if I am asked, I want them to know that is not what I do.
Puunui



Why is that important for them to know?

Because for the most part only those in the WTF world appreciate the nuances of that type of sparring. (i can appreciate some of the nuances)

For the rest of the MA world and even the non MA world the general perception is that it looks stupid and establishes bad Self Defense habits. I share in that perception.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Originally Posted by Earl Weiss
BTW I consider the KKW inclusiveness to be one of it's great strengths yet at the same time one of it's great weaknesses, while I consider the ITF exclusiveness to be one of it's great strengths and at the same time one of it's great weaknesses.




Puunui
If it remained that black and white, then maybe. But it is a multi-step process, ...... We are now on the latest stage, which is unification with respect to poomsae, through kukkiwon instructor courses, the hanmadang, and the WTF world poomsae championships.


Yes, of course, copying exactly what General Choi was doing 40 years earlier

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Because for the most part only those in the WTF world appreciate the nuances of that type of sparring. (i can appreciate some of the nuances)

I'm sure that everyone in the NFL can appreciate the value of wearing protective gear. Boxing, kick boxing, and MMA all use some kind of protective gear. Applying the padding to the hands and feet simply shifts the padding to another part of the body but the effect is the same.

As for not punching to the face, they don't do that in kyokushin either.

For the rest of the MA world and even the non MA world the general perception is that it looks stupid

This is an ignorant comment. Aside from the fact that you could say that anything looks stupid, this is also a sweeping generalization and false.

And since when did the non MA world's perception have any bearing on the value of an MA?

and establishes bad Self Defense habits.

Every rule set that allows for any level of protective gear, limits targets and techniques, and awards points produces sparring establishes bad self defense habits in some way or another. You could argue that judo and BJJ establish bad self defense habits because they don't address striking or that boxing produces bad self defense habits because the participants wear gloves (and headgear in amateur boxing) and do not address kicking or grappling.

Everybody who practices an MA has an opinion about how SD-worthy other MAs are. I have seen virtually every MA criticized as being unrealistic or ineffective on this site, including Chang Hon TKD.

I share in that perception.

Some others do and some others don't.

 

[Cyriacus]

To be fair, theres ALOT of people all over the Internet who resent WTF TKD for its Olympic Style Stuff.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

To be fair, theres ALOT of people all over the Internet who resent WTF TKD for its Olympic Style Stuff.

What does that prove: There's ALOT of people all over the internet who like WTF TKD for its Olympic style stuff, so now you're back at square one.

And why would anyone resent it? Its one thing to say that it isn't their thing, but to resent it indicate a personal problem on their part. Haidong gumdo isn't my thing, but I certainly don't resent it. MMA isn't my thing either, but I don't resent it. In fact, I hope that both arts achieve the same level of sustained success that Kukki taekwondo has.

 

[puunui]

Because for the most part only those in the WTF world appreciate the nuances of that type of sparring. (i can appreciate some of the nuances) For the rest of the MA world and even the non MA world the general perception is that it looks stupid and establishes bad Self Defense habits. I share in that perception.

I disagree. If that were the case, then kukki taekwondo dojang would be empty, instead of packed to the rafters with students. We may be at a point where there are more kukki taekwondo practitioners in the world than all other martial arts practitioners combined. And if people thought that it looked "stupid", then there wouldn't be so many out there who are copying taekwondo techniques and strategies, much less actually trying to learn them.

Here's another true story for you. I have a student who used to have a commercial dojang directly across the street from a karate dojo. Both schools were on the second floor and both had all glass windows facing each other, so each side to clearly see what the other was doing. One day, two students from the karate school approached my student and asked for private lessons to learn taekwondo kicking techniques, which they watched with awe from across the street. The two karate students were both world champions, but they wanted to add the steps and kicks which were not in their arsenal. So they took private lessons for a few months and blended taekwondo's modern competition training methods into their own. A short while later, I saw some karate competition at the USOC sponsored Titan Games and was surprised to see one of the karate students winning all his matches with steps and a back leg roundhouse kick to the body.

People may think it is stupid, but perhaps not high level practitioners, like those two karate world champions.

In your neck of the woods, what is the ratio between kukki taekwondo practitioners vs. ITF practitioners?

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Thats no different to the thousands of tkd students who go and train in muay thai to improve punching or the ones who go and do bjj to improve their ground game. Obviously tkd is the place to go to improve kicks. But for every story like yours there is another in reverse. I have a friend who recently swapped from tkd to shotokan, and another who went from tkd to wing chun.

 

[puunui]

Yes, of course, copying exactly what General Choi was doing 40 years earlier

Actually the kukki taekwondo pioneers are nothing like General Choi. If anything, General Choi has been reacting to and trying to keep up with kukki taekwondo since he left South Korea. WTF hosts its first World Championships in 1973; ITF hosts its first World Championships in 1974. Kukkiwon is completed in 1972; the ITF's version, the Taekwon-Do Palace I think it is called, gets erected in North Korea after that. And so forth.

But the biggest difference is that the kukki taekwondo pioneers made a concerted effort to work together; General Choi never took that approach. General Choi also started with forms first. He spent a lot of time and effort spreading those chang hon tul, and spent almost no time on sparring competition, even though he wanted to make taekwon-do an Olympic sport as much as the kukki taekwondo pioneers.

Also, the time frames are a little off as well. The unification efforts of kukki taekwondo began in the 1950's, with those early efforts to unify, first with the Daehan Kongsoodo Hyophwe in 1952 or 1953, and then the Daehan Taesoodo Hyophwe beginning in 1961.

Finally, the biggest difference is that the kukki taekwondo pioneers were content to let go of their individual identities and kwan relationships in favor of unification. In contrast, the ITF begins and ends with General Choi's name. Even now, with the ITF shattered into so many different pieces, you still cannot help but attempt to give credit to General Choi for everything.

 

[puunui]

To be fair, theres ALOT of people all over the Internet who resent WTF TKD for its Olympic Style Stuff.

I don't think so. I think it is the same people voicing the same opinion over and over.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

If it is the same people voicing their opinions over and over again then they must have a lot of time on their hands. I certainly dont agree with most of it, but the internet is absolutely littered with anti tkd sentiment, particularly from other martial artists.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Thats no different to the thousands of tkd students who go and train in muay thai to improve punching or the ones who go and do bjj to improve their ground game. Obviously tkd is the place to go to improve kicks. But for every story like yours there is another in reverse. I have a friend who recently swapped from tkd to shotokan, and another who went from tkd to wing chun.

Sometimes, I think simply the change of environment helps. You leave one place and start fresh at another with no baggage. People go from one art to another for a lot of reasons as well.

Taekwondo is a gateway art to a great degree. It's all over the place, easy to get into, not incredibly over the top to advance in, and it isn't presented as being particularly esoteric. People start off in taekwondo and do it for a year to several years and then want to try something new. Not everyone wants to stay with the same art for their entire life, or only do one art.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

If it is the same people voicing their opinions over and over again then they must have a lot of time on their hands. I certainly dont agree with most of it, but the internet is absolutely littered with anti tkd sentiment, particularly from other martial artists.

Some of it is sour grapes, some of it is ignorance, some of it is the momentum of one person starting it and others simply parroting, some of it is personal taste, and some of it is legitimately bad.

The biggest legitimate gripe that I see about taekwondo is in regards to lousy schools. Which makes sense; they have way more schools. 20% of 5,000 nets you a lot more problem schools than 20% of 500. The numbers are not hard data; I don't know the exact percentage of lousy vs. not lousy schools nor the number of TKD schools in the US, but you get the idea.

The biggest personal taste gripe that I see is that of kiddie black belts, which while not limited to TKD, the sheer quantity of schools makes TKD stand out in that area. I say that it is a personal taste gripe because it really is a matter of personal taste.

Neither of those gripes has anything to do with the art itself, the skill of top level taekwondoists, or the self defense value of the art. Regarding the last, the self defense value depends greatly on where you are training, as some KKW schools place a higher emphasis on it than others do, and on what you perceive self defense to be.

 

[Gorilla]

I live in Las Vegas the ground zero for MMA. I Know UFC Fighters. BJJ Champions, Judo BB, MT fighters and they all respect Taekwondo. I have never heard one say a disparaging remark about our sport.

Both of my kids compete at a high level in WTF Tkd and WKF/NKF Karate. They are Dan holders in KKW Tkd and Shotokan Karate.

Both Sports require tremendous athletic ability to fight at a high level. Each sport has helped them improve in competition. They borrow from each.

Many karate fighters train in Tkd...

 

[ralphmcpherson]

You're exactly right Gorilla, the point I was making is that its not a one way street. All arts have their strong and weak points and for each person who walks into a tkd dojang to improve their kicking, there is probably a tkdist walking into a muay thai or boxing gym to improve their punching. It makes for better all round martial artists, but it is a two way street.

 

[Carol]

Some of it is sour grapes, some of it is ignorance, some of it is the momentum of one person starting it and others simply parroting, some of it is personal taste, and some of it is legitimately bad.

The biggest legitimate gripe that I see about taekwondo is in regards to lousy schools. Which makes sense; they have way more schools. 20% of 5,000 nets you a lot more problem schools than 20% of 500. The numbers are not hard data; I don't know the exact percentage of lousy vs. not lousy schools nor the number of TKD schools in the US, but you get the idea.

The biggest personal taste gripe that I see is that of kiddie black belts, which while not limited to TKD, the sheer quantity of schools makes TKD stand out in that area. I say that it is a personal taste gripe because it really is a matter of personal taste.

Neither of those gripes has anything to do with the art itself, the skill of top level taekwondoists, or the self defense value of the art. Regarding the last, the self defense value depends greatly on where you are training, as some KKW schools place a higher emphasis on it than others do, and on what you perceive self defense to be.

I think this is dead on.

I live in Las Vegas the ground zero for MMA. I Know UFC Fighters. BJJ Champions, Judo BB, MT fighters and they all respect Taekwondo. I have never heard one say a disparaging remark about our sport.

Both of my kids compete at a high level in WTF Tkd and WKF/NKF Karate. They are Dan holders in KKW Tkd and Shotokan Karate.

Both Sports require tremendous athletic ability to fight at a high level. Each sport has helped them improve in competition. They borrow from each.

Many karate fighters train in Tkd...

Tal, I don't know if I want to be around to see what happens if someone were to tell your kids they can't fight!