Taekwondo: is it a sport or a martial art? ( again)

[Earl Weiss]

I disagree. If that were the case, then kukki taekwondo dojang would be empty, instead of packed to the rafters with students.

, I saw some karate competition at the USOC sponsored Titan Games and was surprised to see one of the karate students winning all his matches with steps and a back leg roundhouse kick to the body.

People may think it is stupid, but perhaps not high level practitioners, like those two karate world champions.

In your neck of the woods, what is the ratio between kukki taekwondo practitioners vs. ITF practitioners?

I for one see a lot of merit in some of the WTF footwork and how some of the kicks have been refined for competiton. I also see people jumping around with their hands down which is an invitation for disaster. I have had WTF style r\=train with me and feel like their faces were targets. With some training they were able to overcome this deficiency. I myself have trained at a boxing gym to improve my hand skills. So I see the vlaue in exploring other arts.

As far as numbers go I would say WTF schools outnumber Chang Hon about 100 to one. The WTF / Kukki Black Belts age 10 and under about 10,000 to one. Makes me want to Barf when I see 99% of the 10 and under Black Belts. Have had some of these students with their parents come to see about training with me. 99% couldn't stay on the floor with the kids in my class. Have had plenty of kids not take things seriously, not be allowed to test, disappear and show up at the door a couple months later telling me they got their next belt or two at the WTF / KKW school down the road.

Are there some fantastic KKW / WTF athletes? Of course. Went to a seminar with Arlene Limas once. Of course she was a great local competitor before she was WTF.

So, does the fact that the WTF / KKW people outnumber Chang Hon by a factor of 1000 to one bother me? Only to the extent that people see all those kiddie black belts breaking BS boards and parents of same think that this is good stuff.

Again, there is some good stuff out there. Sadly, not a lot. There are great practitioners and athletes irrespective of organizations. It's the WTF style of sparring. (and yes, sadly there is bad ITF stuff as well, especialy with some more recent trends in competition.

And while Mr. Sullivan has every right to think my comment is ignorant, it is based on my experience at over 40 non TKD seminars in various locations over almost 40 years. Check out videos of real world altercations. The vast majority starty with a punch to the face. (A revent article in BB mag did a limited survey of such altercations and bears this out as does "Real Fighting" written before internet videos became popular. )
If you choose to train / spar without this and think it's smart, more power to you.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Master Weiss hit the nail on the head, great post. I know we have discussed this subject to death and we are all sick and tired of it, but one thing I have never understood is if 99% of altercations start with someone throwing a face punch (and most people in the know will tell you this is the case), then how can you have a ruleset with no face punches and then tell students it is preparing them for self defence?

 

[puunui]

I for one see a lot of merit in some of the WTF footwork and how some of the kicks have been refined for competiton. I also see people jumping around with their hands down which is an invitation for disaster. I have had WTF style r\=train with me and feel like their faces were targets. With some training they were able to overcome this deficiency.

Most poomsae start with hands down. Most one step sparring starts with hands down, or at least used to originally. Hapkido self defense techniques, especially advanced techniques, begin with hands down. Hands down is not limited to kyorugi under the WTF Competition Rules, and even then it is used primarily in certain situations, when for example, you are in unreachable distance. I admit that many people watch video and that is all they see, but there is a lot going on other than bouncing around with your arms down, which again happens for a specific reason.

And a lot of it is personal preference. That 15 year old for example, liked to keep his hands up, even when in unreachable distance, something that he was taught in kajukenbo. He couldn't break the habit, it was too ingrained. But all the seniors that he sparred with had their hands up and that didn't save them from getting hit, and it didn't help them hit the 15 year old in the head because after a while they went defensive and started worrying about not getting hit, as opposed to scoring shots, to the head or otherwise. If I remember correctly, most of his matches were whatever to zero, except that golden gloves guy with the one foot height advantage. But if I could have given that student a back kick in those three months, then that guy would have been neutralized as well. But he felt uncomfortable turning his back, another stumbling block/obstacle learned from kajukenbo. He couldn't overcome his feelings of fear, engrained into him from that year of negative reinforcement. "Keep your hands up! Don't turn your back to your opponent!!" and all of that. Those became mental blocks that were hard to overcome. But the reason why he was successful against those kajukenbo people was because those kjkb seniors had even more mental blocks. For example, their kick and punch range was basically the same range, and they assumed that was the way it was for others as well, with their short kicks and long punches.

As for the merits of "some of the WTF footwork", it isn't just the specific individual footwork itself, but rather it is a conceptual framework to approach sparring. If you try to only take this or that, then you will be unsuccessful, just like you would be if you only learned arm bar in bjj. You cannot pick and choose but rather you have to understand the conceptual framework of bjj in order to get it to work for you. It is not something you can pick up at a seminar, for example.

 

[puunui]

As far as numbers go I would say WTF schools outnumber Chang Hon about 100 to one. The WTF / Kukki Black Belts age 10 and under about 10,000 to one. Makes me want to Barf when I see 99% of the 10 and under Black Belts.

And the barfing, it is because you are looking at it from your standards, or are you looking at it from theirs, which is 1st degree is not that high and not that great, which by the way is the same standard in korea. In korea, they don't think in terms of color of your belt, they think in terms of what poom/dan you are.

I don't know if you feel the same way, but a lot of times, my job as a teacher is helping people understand that they do not have to limit themselves with non-productive attitudes and positions. I feel like I spend all my time freeing slaves from their own ingrained thoughts. Other instructors take a different approach, instead of teaching their students about freedom, they spend their time putting even more chains on. "Sparring doesn't help you in self defense!" "Train for a long time and MAYBE you might get it." "You have to be special to reach grandmaster level." "Black belt is a really high rank." "we do martial ARTS not sport" "my certificate with my signature is worth more than some big organization's certificate", or whatever else they can cram into their student's head.

Anything that limits you in the future is BS.

 

[Gorilla]

Carol,

Thanks for the kind words....they would probably just smile and walk away.

 

[puunui]

The more I read this thread the more I am reminded of the term "Daja-poo" The feeling that we have stepped in this crap before. Thus far there has been nothing new added to this age old argument, which becons the question...why was this started again? Everyone is constantly challenging someone else's belief/definition of what a martial art is and what a martial sport is. This is just a @$$ hair away from saying your religion is wrong. It is apparent that you will not be able to change another's mind. At best you may clarify why you take the position you do. However, that only instigates people to challenges towards your view point. So again...why?

Have you ever heard the story about crabs in a bucket? Many are trying to crawl out, but whenever someone comes close, he gets dragged down by the other crabs. I'm the crab at the rim telling everyone there is more to life than living in a bucket, come out and see the world as you were meant to see it.

 

[Marcy Shoberg]

I think many people have different definitions of taekwondo, just as many people have different definitions of martial art, and different definitions of self-defense.
At least when a person says "sport" we pretty well know what they are referring to. It's a game you try to win.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

It could also perhaps be the other school of thought that is the crab on the rim of the bucket.

 

[andyjeffries]

Master Weiss hit the nail on the head, great post. I know we have discussed this subject to death and we are all sick and tired of it, but one thing I have never understood is if 99% of altercations start with someone throwing a face punch (and most people in the know will tell you this is the case), then how can you have a ruleset with no face punches and then tell students it is preparing them for self defence?

I don't tell students that WTF sparring is preparing them for self-defence?! Sure it teaches some of the things they will need - distance, timing, getting used to being hit (hard), dealing with minor injuries and carrying on, confidence, dealing with adrenaline dumps - to give just a quick list off the top of my head. But it isn't preparing them for self-defence.

We do one steps and self-defence training for that.

 

[Earl Weiss]

And the barfing, it is because you are looking at it from your standards, or are you looking at it from theirs, which is 1st degree is not that high and not that great, which by the way is the same standard in korea. In korea, they don't think in terms of color of your belt, they think in terms of what poom/dan you are.

.

Not being in Korea, I am not viewing it from the Korean perspective. No reason I should. Further, I did not mean to imply that the perceptions I have run across at non TKD events had anything to do with perceptions in Korea.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Master Weiss hit the nail on the head, great post. I know we have discussed this subject to death and we are all sick and tired of it, but one thing I have never understood is if 99% of altercations start with someone throwing a face punch (and most people in the know will tell you this is the case),

If this figure is hard data, name a source who is "in the know" and where they get their figures. Is it the same source that provided the '90% of all fights go to the ground,' which is also bogus because the context represented as "all fights" was actually police officers apprehending suspects.

then how can you have a ruleset with no face punches and then tell students it is preparing them for self defence?

No competitive rule set is preparation for self defense. They all develop bad habbits of some kind and they all miss the mark in critical areas.

Secondly, I have never personally heard WTF sparring represented as being analgous to a violent altercation in any school where I have trained. Practical SD has always been a separate part of the class.

Finally, every guard has its purpose, pros and cons. Every guard leaves something vital open (high guard leave open your entire lower body and part of your torso, wherein most of your vitals are contained, and the genitalia, which is a popular target). Every guard does something effective, be it in or out of competition. Your arms can only guard but so much of your body, so everyone who is involved in any kind of fight sport finds ways to compensate for the uncovered areas. Usually through avoidance and distance management, the first of which is as important as guard and the second of which is more important than guard.

 

[miguksaram]

Have you ever heard the story about crabs in a bucket? Many are trying to crawl out, but whenever someone comes close, he gets dragged down by the other crabs. I'm the crab at the rim telling everyone there is more to life than living in a bucket, come out and see the world as you were meant to see it.

Know it, I utilize it as a base standard in my of my FB daily posts. The overall problem here is that people seem to mistake what one instructor does as a definition of the entire art. Instructor 'A' only teaches competition aspect of TKD so ALL TKD IS NOTHING BUT SPORT.

KKW TKD, if taught according to what the pioneers set out to do, will encompass all aspects, sport, tradtional, practical. However, human nature kicks in and instructors start to teach what they are best at or enjoy doing the most because that is what they feel more comfortable teaching. Some love competition so guess what they are going to teach...competition. Some people only like self defense, so they focus on self defense. It is all Taekwondo, but at the same time it is only a small portion of the whole.

These threads become more and more useless because those who do not like WTF TKD sparring will rarely see past that and will dismiss all of what KKW TKD can do. Those who do like WTF TKD sparring are so busy trying to shoot down the opposition that they even fail to try and understand the rest of what KKW TKD has to offer. This of course, does not only apply to KKW TKD, but ITF TKD, ATA TKD and so forth. Each of them have a sport, tradition, and practical side to them.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

And while Mr. Sullivan has every right to think my comment is ignorant, it is based on my experience at over 40 non TKD seminars in various locations over almost 40 years. Check out videos of real world altercations. The vast majority starty with a punch to the face. (A revent article in BB mag did a limited survey of such altercations and bears this out as does "Real Fighting" written before internet videos became popular. )
If you choose to train / spar without this and think it's smart, more power to you.

Condescending and passive/aggressive while failing to address any of what I said to you. Boasting about seminar attendance is not addressing points in the discussion, nor is it justification for blatant style bashing. Besides, I don't evaluate anyone's posts based on their seminar attendance, but on the content of the post itself.

As for whether or not training in KKW/WTF taekwondo is smart, it always comes down to what you want from the art and who your instructors are. I've said in this thread something of what my experience with WTF sparring and SD in KKW schools has been.

 

[chrispillertkd]

It could also perhaps be the other school of thought that is the crab on the rim of the bucket.

Oh, such nonsense. Down, crab! Down!



Pax,

Chris

 

[Earl Weiss]

Condescending and passive/aggressive while failing to address any of what I said to you. Boasting about seminar attendance is not addressing points in the discussion, nor is it justification for blatant style bashing. Besides, I don't evaluate anyone's posts based on their seminar attendance, but on the content of the post itself.

As for whether or not training in KKW/WTF taekwondo is smart, it always comes down to what you want from the art and who your instructors are. I've said in this thread something of what my experience with WTF sparring and SD in KKW schools has been.

Well, if you feel honesty is passive agresive / condescending so be it. If you feel I failed to address your points, so much the same. You view my comments about seminar attendance as boasting. I provided the info so you would have some idea as to what formed the basis of my ignorant opinion.
I have no issue with people getting what they want from an art. I have an issue with them thinking they are getting something when they are deluding themselves. When i see people demonstrating "Power" using BS boards. they are deluding themselves.

I may be deluding myself but I really think many of the WTF rule set sparrers think they are prepared for the most common real world attack, the Punch to the face.

I don't think I am so much "anti Style' as I am Anti WTF sparring rule set. It may surprise you but I am also against certain ITF rules which disallow kicking below the waist. We drill these techniques to overcome the deficiency.

I think the main difference is I readily acknowledge the ITF rule set deficiencies vis a vis self defense training and staunch supporters of the WTF rule set seem to pretend this elephant is not in the room.

 

[puunui]

Not being in Korea, I am not viewing it from the Korean perspective. No reason I should.

You would or should if you wished to compare those kukki taekwondo poom and dan holders to the standards of their own organization, instead of your own.

Further, I did not mean to imply that the perceptions I have run across at non TKD events had anything to do with perceptions in Korea.

I don't understand what you are trying to say here. My only point was comparing kukki taekwondoin to their own standards, and not your own.

 

[puunui]

I may be deluding myself but I really think many of the WTF rule set sparrers think they are prepared for the most common real world attack, the Punch to the face.

Actually I believe it starts with a push to the chest.

I don't think I am so much "anti Style' as I am Anti WTF sparring rule set. It may surprise you but I am also against certain ITF rules which disallow kicking below the waist. We drill these techniques to overcome the deficiency. I think the main difference is I readily acknowledge the ITF rule set deficiencies vis a vis self defense training and staunch supporters of the WTF rule set seem to pretend this elephant is not in the room.

I think the main difference is that you are willing to judge kukki taekwondo without first understanding it.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Well, if you feel honesty is passive agresive / condescending so be it. If you feel I failed to address your points, so much the same. You view my comments about seminar attendance as boasting. I provided the info so you would have some idea as to what formed the basis of my ignorant opinion.

The only thing that I said was ignorant was this:

For the rest of the MA world and even the non MA world the general perception is that it looks stupid

I never broad brushed your opinion or you as being ignorant. Had you said that this was your opinion, I would not have said that it was ignorant, as presumably, you are aware of your own opinions.

As for the seminar attendance, my point was that I respond to the content of your posts. How many seminars you have been to in the past doesn't change whatever it is you typed today. I don't question your experience; I know enough about the subject to know that you're not some troll watching youtube. But you still made a sweeping generalization and engaged in style bashing, and some of what you say about KKW/WTF taekwondo is simply not accurate. I don't make sweeping generalizations about ITF taekwondo because I don't practice it.

I have no issue with people getting what they want from an art. I have an issue with them thinking they are getting something when they are deluding themselves. When i see people demonstrating "Power" using BS boards. they are deluding themselves.

How do you know what people think that they are getting? And I'm pretty sure your federation uses BS boards breaking as well. So to do karate schools, hapkido schools, and a whole slew of other schools. This is hardly unique to the WTF.

I may be deluding myself but I really think many of the WTF rule set sparrers think they are prepared for the most common real world attack, the Punch to the face.

Maybe they are prepared. Your statement presumes that WTF sparring is the only thing that they're doing. I can tell you with complete confidence that I am. And not just because I extrapolate what I 'might do' against that particular circumstance, but because the WTF schools where I have trained included drills and 'sparring' other than just what you see in the Olympics. Also because I have been on the receiving end of people attempting to punch me in the face and haven't had any trouble defending against it.

I don't think I am so much "anti Style' as I am Anti WTF sparring rule set. It may surprise you but I am also against certain ITF rules which disallow kicking below the waist. We drill these techniques to overcome the deficiency.

Why would it surprise me? I have no assumptions about what you think or feel. I respond to what you type rather than try to guess about what you're thinking. And I didn't say that you were anti style; I said that you were style bashing. I might be anti-style of some kind, but because I refrain from bashing it, you would never know. Anti-style is a personal position. Style bashing is an act one engages in.

I think the main difference is I readily acknowledge the ITF rule set deficiencies vis a vis self defense training and staunch supporters of the WTF rule set seem to pretend this elephant is not in the room.

Perhaps you do, but since you don't train in Kukki taekwondo, you are guessing regarding what staunch supporters think on the subject or what kind of training that they may receive at their dojang.

Incidentally, plenty that I know readily acknowledge, rightly or wrongly, that there are areas that are not adequately addressed in Kukki taekwondo. Rather than complain about it or treat it as some elephant in the room, they go and seek out a means to address it. Judo doesn't address many self defense areas. Like striking. It isn't an elephant in the room; judoka who want to strike go and crosstrain somewhere that focuses on striking.

I have said it before and will say it again: it all comes down to the individual school and instructor. Simply having an org membership does not preclude a school from being great or prevent it from being lousy. Some schools are more holistic than others and others are more focused in a particular area than others.

 

[chrispillertkd]

Out of curiosity, how does this statement:

I don't make sweeping generalizations about ITF taekwondo because I don't practice it.

get reconciled with this statement:

And I'm pretty sure your federation uses BS boards breaking as well.

That sounds like a pretty sweeping generalization to me about a style you don't practice (or an organization you don't belong to at the very least).

Pax,

Chris

 

[Jaeimseu]

Out of curiosity, how does this statement:



get reconciled with this statement:


That sounds like a pretty sweeping generalization to me about a style you don't practice (or an organization you don't belong to at the very least).

Pax,

Chris

I didn't read his statement as a sweeping generalization. I thought he was saying that "BS" boards (I assume that means the thin "demo" style boards) could be found in ITF schools, as well as in non-taekwondo schools. I think you may be reading too much into his statement, or you may be reaching a bit. That's just the way I read it.