Taekwondo: is it a sport or a martial art? ( again)

[chrispillertkd]

Awesome! Bring on the sports of beer drinking and smoking! And Candy Land

Pax,

Chris

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Hey, if you use the original definition Daniel mentioned drinking beer and smoking are sports!

Pax,

Chris

According to the dictionary, they are indeed. See definition three http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sport (quoted from the site in my previous post).

However, the context of this discussion revolves around taekwondo and its relationship to definition one.

 

[chrispillertkd]

According to the dictionary, they are indeed. See definition three http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sport (quoted from the site in my previous post).

Indeed, which is why that definition isn't helpful. Because people don't really think of sports that way.

However, the context of this discussion revolves around taekwondo and its relationship to definition one.

It's an aspect of Taekwon-Do, though Taekwon-Do is not a sport in itself.

Can't say for Taekwondo, though.

Pax,

Chris

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Indeed, which is why that definition isn't helpful. Because people don't really think of sports that way.

Perhaps not, but since we're having a technical discussion about sport or martial art, it is pertinent.

It's an aspect of Taekwon-Do, though Taekwon-Do is not a sport in itself.

Can't say for Taekwondo, though.

Sport (athletic contest) is an aspect of taekwondo: WTF competition (sport) is taekwondo, but other aspects of taekwondo (pumse, philosophy, etc.) are not WTF competition (sport).

 

[chrispillertkd]

Poomse isn't a sporting event? People are talking about Poomse WC's these days. I think some people here are even on the U.S. national team. I was under the impression that was run by the WTF.

Pax,

Chris

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Poomse isn't a sporting event? People are talking about Poomse WC's these days. I think some people here are even on the U.S. national team. I was under the impression that was run by the WTF.

Pax,

Chris

Sure. I was thinking of WTF competition in the athletic contest between two active fighters, but you are correct; pumse competition is sport in the same way that figure skating or gymnastics are, though with less room for creativity.

 

[Cyriacus]

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/taekwondo?s=t

[h=2]tae kwon do[/h]   [tahy kwon doh] Show IPA
nouna Korean martial art, a particularly aggressive form of karate, thatutilizes punches, jabs, chops, blocking and choking moves, andespecially powerful, leaping kicks.

​

Interesting definition You have there. It doesnt even mention Sport or Self Defense.
It does say its a form of Karate but.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Karate?s=t

[h=2]ka·ra·te[/h]   [kuh-rah-tee] Show IPA
noun1.a method developed in Japan of defending oneself withoutthe use of weapons by striking sensitive areas on anattacker's body with the hands, elbows, knees, or feet.Compare judo, jujitsu.

2.a sport based on this method of self-defense.



So, Ive news for everyone: Theres no Chokes in Karate, but there are in Taekwondo.


​

 

[puunui]

Of course not. If it were settled in any meaningful way, the topic would not come up over and over again.

I would disagree with that. Many things are settled and still come up over and over again. President Obama's US citizenship for example.

 

[puunui]

Indeed, which is why that definition isn't helpful. Because people don't really think of sports that way.

Then the answer is to educate people as to the definition, including the definition as contained in the Olympic Charter, and not dumb down to other people's ignorance.

 

[Jaeimseu]

Is a designated hitter a baseball player?

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Originally Posted by puunui
keep it even more simple: don't make distinctions between sport competition martial art or self defense, because all of it is taekwondo

I think making that distinction aids potential students finding a club thats right for them. A student looking to train in and compete in tkd would find little use in a tkd club whose sole purpose is self defence training, just as someone whose sole purpose is self defence training will find little relevence in training at a club whose whole focus is training for sports competitions. While its all good and well to say all tkd is the same thing, the truth of the matter is that thats not the case. probably why many clubs (in my area at least) now use the term "sport tkd" on their signage, so as to differentiate themselves from clubs who dont teach the sport aspect.

Touching on Glenn's portion of the above quote, he's correct in that sport competition and self-defense can both be considered 'Taekwondo'. However, touching on Ralph's portion of the above quote, he's correct in that a distinction does indeed need to be made between the two venues. They are polar opposites and the training in each differs tremendously in form and focus. It would be a grave disservice to the student to advertise one as representing the other (or both if the proper training methodology wasn't used).

This directly goes back to what I stated a few months ago; both are viable venues of training within their specifi context. One is not 'better' than the other in the same way that fruits aren't 'better' than vegtables. Both have completely different uses within the body though there is 'some' overlap. Both can be labeled as 'food'. So TKD is an umbrella term for both sport and self-defense methodology. The actual training methodologies simply differ.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

The modern usage of the word martial art broadens the definition from war sciences to essentially any fighting system, be it competitive or no, thus my original answer to the OP was "yes."

This is debateable. While some people would include such sports as wrestling as a martial art, others would not. To say the "modern usage" of the term does this or that is being overly broad, IMNSHO. The issue simply isn't settled in any meaningful way.

Of course not. If it were settled in any meaningful way, the topic would not come up over and over again.

I would disagree with that. Many things are settled and still come up over and over again. President Obama's US citizenship for example.

Very true.

However, one of the things that prevents this issue from being settled meaningfully is that there is disagreement within certain fighting systems as to whether or not it is a martial art. I used to be active on F.net and most of the fencers were adamant that fencing was a sport and not an MA.

Guys who wrestle generally consider it a sport and not an MA, but if wrestling is not MA, what makes Judo and BJJ MA, given that both are just a form of wrestling? How is kendo a martial art and fencing isn't, given that both are fencing.

I'm not interested in parsing what fighting systems are or are not martial arts; I'm simply pointing out that within fighting systems, there is not much consistency about what defines a martial art.

Then you have an inability on the part of many participants in the conversation (in general, not just this thread) to agree as to what constitutes a sport.

Then you have ego issues at stake, which is what drives the very strong viewpoints of some participants (in general, not just this thread). Some people feel threatened, for example, by the idea that a ten year old can wear the same color belt that they do. Others know, deep down, that they are unable to keep pace with athletes and are simply jealous. So they denigrate the 'sport' and make big speeches about how what they do is martial art, self defense, and blah, blah, blah. You also have those who despise the culture of sports and want to distance themselves from it to the greatest degree possible.

Then you have the other side of the coin; people who have trained primarily for competition but have not developed depth in the art who look down their noses at anyone who doesn't have a fight record.

Finally, within taekwondo discussions, you have the issue of people who do not train in the art throwing in their opinions about it, and who insist that their opinions hold equal weight with that of those who do train in the art. Sometimes, those opinions are well thought out and have some merit. Most often, however, this is not the case.

Until everyone in the conversation (again, in general, not specifically in this thread) is able to put their egos aside and can agree on what constitutes the subject, there is no way within the conversation to settle anything meaningfully.

 

[terryl965]

Really, seriously, unbelievable that so much time and energy is still being spent on whether or not it is a sport or Art? I can't even watch this debalcle happen again, how many threads, how many time echoing the same statement day in and day out?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Really, seriously, unbelievable that so much time and energy is still being spent on whether or not it is a sport or Art? I can't even watch this debalcle happen again, how many threads, how many time echoing the same statement day in and day out?

Dude, time to switch to decaf!

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Maybe I'm reading you wrong Daniel, but you seem very frustrated with this topic? It really isn't something to get upset about is it?

However, one of the things that prevents this issue from being settled meaningfully is that there is disagreement within certain fighting systems as to whether or not it is a martial art. I used to be active on F.net and most of the fencers were adamant that fencing was a sport and not an MA.

Guys who wrestle generally consider it a sport and not an MA, but if wrestling is not MA, what makes Judo and BJJ MA, given that both are just a form of wrestling? How is kendo a martial art and fencing isn't, given that both are fencing.

Then you have an inability on the part of many participants in the conversation (in general, not just this thread) to agree as to what constitutes a sport.

There really isn't going to be a definitive answer. It will vary as much as question like, 'how long does it take to earn a BB'? The answer will depend upon whom your talking to and their background.

Then you have ego issues at stake, which is what drives the very strong viewpoints of some participants (in general, not just this thread). Some people feel threatened, for example, by the idea that a ten year old can wear the same color belt that they do.

Is it necessarily ego? Perhaps it is a legitimate question of the actual training behind the belt for a child vs. an adult? You could say the same thing for a 4yr old that wears a BB and one that is 15yrs old. Was the training the same? Can they do the same things from a skill/experience point of view? Was it just a 'feel-good-BB club' sorta thing or solid training? Lots of variables to be considered. More of a case-by-case basis topic.

Others know, deep down, that they are unable to keep pace with athletes and are simply jealous. So they denigrate the 'sport' and make big speeches about how what they do is martial art, self defense, and blah, blah, blah.

I'm not sure what you mean by this statement? It seems to be a very broad brush stroke at best. Someone that trains for self-defense doesn't need to be an 'athlete' although they could be. Your applying a goal from one venue to fit another venue in which it isn't a necessary requirement. I don't see it as 'denigrating' to establish that there is a difference between the two teaching methodologies.

Finally, within taekwondo discussions, you have the issue of people who do not train in the art throwing in their opinions about it, and who insist that their opinions hold equal weight with that of those who do train in the art. Sometimes, those opinions are well thought out and have some merit. Most often, however, this is not the case.

Who are these people? Has this been an issue in this thread (or any other for that matter)? And too be honest, one shouldn't have to have trained (or currently train) in TKD to have a valid opinion on a plethora of topics within the art/sport. I've seen many non-TKD folks join in many of these conversations with valid points. I'm surprised you would even go this route with a position that 'most' don't have any merit. You may as well say, 'don't post in this section unless you're TKD'!

 

[Earl Weiss]

Next we will solve the age old problem of how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

The question is perhaps one of perspective. I for one do not agree with this statement from Glenn "

Originally Posted by puunui
keep it even more simple: don't make distinctions between sport competition martial art or self defense, because all of it is taekwondo"

I consider sport and self defense to be elements or part of TKD as a martial art. People who focus exclusively on one without the other, conceding that there is no bright line of demarcation. are practicing an element of TKD. If you only go to the batting cages and practice hitting, are are practicing an element of baseball, but you are not playing baseball.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Maybe I'm reading you wrong Daniel, but you seem very frustrated with this topic? It really isn't something to get upset about is it?

Where are you getting this from?

There really isn't going to be a definitive answer. It will vary as much as question like, 'how long does it take to earn a BB'? The answer will depend upon whom your talking to and their background.

That, and how you use the terms, "sport" and "martial art." The fact that they mean different things to different people and have multiple definitions presents an obstacle to consensus.

Is it necessarily ego? Perhaps it is a legitimate question of the actual training behind the belt for a child vs. an adult? You could say the same thing for a 4yr old that wears a BB and one that is 15yrs old. Was the training the same? Can they do the same things from a skill/experience point of view? Was it just a 'feel-good-BB club' sorta thing or solid training? Lots of variables to be considered. More of a case-by-case basis topic.

In some cases it is ego. In other cases, it is a legitimate question of training. Depends on the circumstance.

I'm not sure what you mean by this statement? It seems to be a very broad brush stroke at best. Someone that trains for self-defense doesn't need to be an 'athlete' although they could be. Your applying a goal from one venue to fit another venue in which it isn't a necessary requirement. I don't see it as 'denigrating' to establish that there is a difference between the two teaching methodologies.

Establishing a difference between the two is not what I was referring to. For example, Ralph establishes a difference between the two but does not denigrate one or the other. Others do not follow that example.

Who are these people? Has this been an issue in this thread (or any other for that matter)?

It is a general observation. This topic has been argued to death on every MA forum on the internet. I speak of no person in particular.

And too be honest, one shouldn't have to have trained (or currently train) in TKD to have a valid opinion on a plethora of topics within the art/sport. I've seen many non-TKD folks join in many of these conversations with valid points.

Agree to disagree.

I'm surprised you would even go this route with a position that 'most' don't have any merit. You may as well say, 'don't post in this section unless you're TKD'!

Not at all. This is a public forum and there are no TOS rules to prevent people from one art from weighing in on conversations about another. A ballerina can watch some youtube and read some wiki and jump into the conversation is she so chooses. Perhaps she will offer insightful commentary. However, her insight will be extremely limited by lack of first hand experience with the art.

My own opinions of kenjutsu have some merit; I practice a related art. But on a kenjutsu thread, I will defer to actual practitioners. There are some things that you simply have to practice an art to 'get.' I can't think of any other way to put it.

In any case, saying that "I find some of those opinions to have merit but that most often I do not" is not tantamount to saying, "don't post in this section unless you're TKD." It simply means that I give far more weight to opinions of those within the field than those without.

Which is pretty much what people in most other fields do. For example, National Geographic will give more weight to the opinion of Jack Horner on the subject of paleontology than I give to the opinion of Michael Crichton on the same subject.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I appreciate the clarification Daniel.

 

[chrispillertkd]

However, one of the things that prevents this issue from being settled meaningfully is that there is disagreement within certain fighting systems as to whether or not it is a martial art. I used to be active on F.net and most of the fencers were adamant that fencing was a sport and not an MA.

Speaking as someone who used to fence, they are absolutely correct. It isn't a martial art.

Guys who wrestle generally consider it a sport and not an MA, but if wrestling is not MA, what makes Judo and BJJ MA, given that both are just a form of wrestling? How is kendo a martial art and fencing isn't, given that both are fencing.

What is a martial art?

A sport is, apparently, drinking beer and smoking cigarettes. Is there something about an activity that must be present for it to be considered a martial art?

Pax,

Chris

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Speaking as someone who used to fence, they are absolutely correct. It isn't a martial art.

I used to fence too. Still do on occasion. While I'm not saying that it is a martial art, why do you say that it isn't?

What is a martial art?

I gave an answer to that in an earlier post. You felt it was too broad. You must therefore have something else in mind. So what is a martial art by your estimation?

A sport is, apparently, drinking beer and smoking cigarettes.

By one of the five definitions they can potentially be. For those who missed that part of the dialogue, I furnished the dictionary definition on page six.

Is there something about an activity that must be present for it to be considered a martial art?

See my previous answer on page 5. Within the context of this conversation, being a fighting system of some kind is pretty much all that is needed. Thus fencing could be included, though I am not interested enough to discuss making a case for doing so.