Welcome back!! And I agree with this post.
Taekwondo: is it a sport or a martial art? ( again)
- Thread starter Markku P
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Cyriacus
Senior Master
Iaido wasnt meant to be used as a way of harming someone using a sword, possibly in the name of surviving an engagement in which You use a Sword?
Judo is not TKD - What is the relevance, since We arent defining what constitutes a sport?
Im not taking sides here, mind. But I do have to question that.
ralphmcpherson
Senior Master
I think making that distinction aids potential students finding a club thats right for them. A student looking to train in and compete in tkd would find little use in a tkd club whose sole purpose is self defence training, just as someone whose sole purpose is self defence training will find little relevence in training at a club whose whole focus is training for sports competitions. While its all good and well to say all tkd is the same thing, the truth of the matter is that thats not the case. probably why many clubs (in my area at least) now use the term "sport tkd" on their signage, so as to differentiate themselves from clubs who dont teach the sport aspect.
Are you asking a question or making a declarative statement? It seems to be a statement, but you placed a question mark at the end. My apologies; I'm not intending to give you a hard time, but the sentence as it is does not make grammatical sense.
Iaido translates as 'way of mental presence,' and so far as I have read and seen, is not taught with the intent of teaching you to harm others or to defend yourself with a sword, but to improve yourself both physically, mentally, and spiritually, through the art and practice of iaido. As to why I mentioned it, see below.
Obviously.
The person to whom I responded did.
I assume not, as taking sides in the exchange would be impossible; I asked Twin Fist a question about his comment. I have neither validated nor rejected his statement, thus I am not debating him or his statement, thus there is no side for you to choose.
What are you questioning? Twin Fist asserts that if it is for competition, it is sport and if it is for self defense, it is martial art.
As none of the arts that I mentioned are self defense arts (though one can certainly apply principles and even some of the technical content in self defense) and in the case of judo, BJJ, and kendo, practitioners are essentially training for matches under a specific rule set (competition), I was asking Twin Fist where such arts fit in with regards to his definition: competition = sport/self defense = martial arts.
As I said, I'm not debating his perspective, but asking him more about it. Whatever his answer, it is his point of view and his perspective, which is subjective. In fact, this entire thread is about differing opinions on the matter, and the opinions expressed have been enjoyable to read.
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Cyriacus
Senior Master
Im not questioning a person - I was questioning what You said, Good Sir.
My opinion is that You can call it Muay Kwon Do-Jutsu for all I care. Ill train it if I like it.
That being said, there could well have been a side for Me to choose if I were to support Twin Fists statement, or anyone elses here. It was meant as a way of saying that I wasnt having a go at You.
As for Iaido, I didnt see the "Unarmed" part of Your comment.
From what I could see, Twin Fist was more distinguishing between ways TKD could be partitioned, and not the definition of Sport. Forgive Me if I misunderstood, but thats the interpretation I got.
I didn't think that you were. Choosing sides in a discussion or debate isn't having a go at someone in any case.Im not questioning a person - I was questioning what You said, Good Sir.
My opinion is that You can call it Muay Kwon Do-Jutsu for all I care. Ill train it if I like it.
That being said, there could well have been a side for Me to choose if I were to support Twin Fists statement, or anyone elses here. It was meant as a way of saying that I wasnt having a go at You.
You're iaido is stronger than mine: You drew your response while I was still editing.
On the subject of whether or not something is or is not sport, the word sport comes from 'desport' which means leisure, and in English usage, it originally was used to describe anything entertaining or amusing. In short, any pastime can be sport.
Modern usage equates sport to physical contests in the context of athletics.
The meaning is broad enough to include self defense, which is a contest, both mental and physical, between attacker(s) and defender.
The modern usage of the word martial art broadens the definition from war sciences to essentially any fighting system, be it competitive or no, thus my original answer to the OP was "yes."
The real issue is not whether or not taekwondo is MA or sport, but whether or not the school and student are a good fit for one another. Ultimately, it all comes down to this:
Failure in either area results in an unsatisfactory relationship between the instructional staff and the student.
Modern usage equates sport to physical contests in the context of athletics.
The meaning is broad enough to include self defense, which is a contest, both mental and physical, between attacker(s) and defender.
The modern usage of the word martial art broadens the definition from war sciences to essentially any fighting system, be it competitive or no, thus my original answer to the OP was "yes."
The real issue is not whether or not taekwondo is MA or sport, but whether or not the school and student are a good fit for one another. Ultimately, it all comes down to this:
- It is incumbent upon the school owner to be forthright about the nature of the training, the atmosphere of the school, and the expense that a potential student can expect to incur.
- It is incumbent upon the potential student to know and to be forthright about the nature of the training and atmosphere that they seek and what they are willing to spend, and to do basic research on the schools available in order to make an informed decision.
Failure in either area results in an unsatisfactory relationship between the instructional staff and the student.
I don't need to look up the word, I know what it means.
Taekwondo competition and training has punching. In fact, if you count up the techniques listed in the Kukkiwon Textbook, there are more hand techniques than foot techniques listed.
However, as you have noted, taekwondo competition does feature more kicking than punching. That is by design. For competition sparring, kicks are featured to a ratio of about 90-10% in favor of kicking; however, in poomsae, hand techniques are featured, to a ratio of about 90-10 for hands. This is in comformity with the um/yang (yin/yang) symbol which shows two spheres rotating around each other, each side containing a small tail of the other. This is expressed in taekwondo in the above. If we required everything in taekwondo to be 50/50, then the um yang symbol would be a circle cut in exactly half, each side colored differently. Kicking emphasis in competition and punching emphasis in poomsae is where we get the "tae" and "kwon" in taekwondo; it does not mean that everything has to be equal all the time throughout everything.
Yes, we already went over this before. Yes, all of it is taekwondo, including taebo. In fact, there is a thing called taekwon dance or something like that, which is a featured part of the Kukkiwon's hanmadang. At the recent US Open Hanmadang, there was not only some impressive competition in the musical forms divisions, but many people were remarking that the k tiger (formerly the tiger team) and muju demonstration team had much more emphasis on dance elements in their routines.
I'm not really back, just poking my head in. I notice the discussions have tailed off considerably and are much less interesting now. oh well.
Regardless, good to see you!
ralphmcpherson
Senior Master
I think you'll find there was considerably more discussion back then because we had ten threads all about the same topic all going around in circles but not actually getting anywhere. Much more pleasant here these days.
Yep
I agree; the sport developed from the art.
I put little to no stock in the opinions of regular people: regular people think anything with a white uniform and/or a belt is karate. I also hold little regard for non-TKD-ists opinion of taekwondo; a kenpoist's opinion of taekwondo is as irrelevant as my opinion of kenpo is.
I also give little credence to the opinions of those who have dabbled a bit (I know a lot of regular people who got a yellow or green belt along the way and have no substantive knowledge of the art); I've dabbled in other arts too. I trained in TSD for about a year and did Shotokan back in high school for over three years. My opinion of the two is enough to know what it is but not enough to make value judgements of either art.
Sounds like sour grapes to me. "All the karate senseis or budo taijutsu, or aikido" are wrong. Kyokushin karate does not allow punches to the head/face and the low guard is not present in any of the pumse, nor is it a requirement in competition.
I will tell you that "All" sensei of the arts you mention are not saying what you are attributing to them. And those that are are apparently uninformed or have never bothered to examine the pumse. The competition rules are not meant to mirror a 'real fight' any more than judo, BJJ, sport karate, or boxing competition rules are meant to. In fact, if you judge every art based on its competition rules, then none of them have any practical self defense value because all of them, even MMA, exclude vital elements of a violent attack.
Gwai Lo Dan
3rd Black Belt
I define sport to exclude activities people do while smoking and having a beer.
Darts, snooker, and corporate softball - not sports.
Running, cycling, basketball - sports.
Then the question then is whether or not you consider darts, snooker, and corporate softball played in alcohol and tobacco free environment to be sports.I define sport to exclude activities people do while smoking and having a beer.
Darts, snooker, and corporate softball - not sports.
Running, cycling, basketball - sports.
chrispillertkd
Senior Master
Which definition are you using, though? You seem a bit equivocal to me, at times.
If you use the former definition then my children and I played the rousing sport of Candy Land recently. But if I told anybody that they'd think I was a bit odd, to say the least. It's just an unhelpful definition, especially in the context of martial arts. Sports have an athletic component to them.
Only in the most analogous sense and, I think, this is where people are going to disagree with you. Athletic contests are decidedly different from the "contest" involved in defending yourself.
This is debateable. While some people would include such sports as wrestling as a martial art, others would not. To say the "modern usage" of the term does this or that is being overly broad, IMNSHO. The issue simply isn't settled in any meaningful way.
Pax,
Chris
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chrispillertkd
Senior Master
I define sport to exclude activities people do while smoking and having a beer.
Hey, if you use the original definition Daniel mentioned drinking beer and smoking are sports!
Pax,
Chris
One and three:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sport
For the vast majority of people, taekwondo is an athletic activity (1) practiced for recreation (3).
Of course only in the most analogous sense.
Of course not. If it were settled in any meaningful way, the topic would not come up over and over again.
