Strating your own System, That is the Question???????

[47MartialMan]

The Blades of Death Dojo is a humorous construct of Phil Elmore. A few years back, friends of Phil were "granted" titles and positions within this non-existent dojo. All the titles and positions, in keeping with Phil's Guide to Internet Trolls and his overall approach to bad budo, were hilariously over the top.

A commissariat is an old Soviet-styled division or department within the government. A commissar is typically a political officer, often empowered with the privilege of summary execution in order to enforce the party line. A minister, in the political sense, is the director or chairman of a department... Therefore, I am the "minister" of the Blades of Death Dojo's "commissariat," whatever that might be.

It is a bogus, made up, hoax title. But thanks for asking...



I'm ordained (if you could call it that) through the Universal Life Church... And you can be, too. Just spend about 10 minutes registering online, and you too will be "clergy." I did it just to say I had. I don't take it seriously at all, even though legally I can perform marriages, etc.

Enjoy.

I want a title in this....

 

[Matt Stone]

You will need to improve on what you have and all all that you might be lacking.

But does that make what you have really a "new" system, or just the old system you learned, developed to a high degree of skill, with a few other skills added on top?

Sounds simple,but it is pretty difficult to do.

I think that's everyone's general concensus... Starting a new system, even when it is based upon the foundation of another art or arts, it is only the rare individual that is able to create something that is greater than the sum of its parts...

Always keep in mind that all styles had to start somewhere, they didn't just happen. The key is systemizing what you have and passing it on.

Granted. I don't think anyone would argue that point (and even if they did, they'd sound like fools...). But the styles we have around today that are the product of a sole individual's efforts (as opposed to just having been handed down from a previous generation) are still extremely unique creations in the MA world...

Anyway...

 

[47MartialMan]

But does that make what you have really a "new" system, or just the old system you learned, developed to a high degree of skill, with a few other skills added on top?
Yes, like what "we have" been discussing red-D-D?


But the styles we have around today that are the product of a sole individual's efforts (as opposed to just having been handed down from a previous generation) are still extremely unique creations in the MA world...
Yes, but a little more than five years "total" martial art training is not enough?

 

[James Kovacich]

I have several problems with people claiming to start their own system:

1. Most "new systems" are merely mongrel styles comprised of a little bit of this and a little bit of that, instead of being truly unique.

2. Many people who claimed to have started their own style do so after having left or gotten kicked out of their original organization. You must ask yourself "Why did they get kicked out and would I really want to study under someone who has no credibility in their original organization?"

3. Most of these "new styles" have no real background, history, tradition, etiquette, or philosophy behind them. Yes, everything starts somewhere, but any legitimate style has a background to go with it.

I think you're post would be more beleivable, in general terms if you switched the words many and most and replaced them with some or maybe a lot.

 

[James Kovacich]

Vasahodo,
Anyone can start their own system on paper. The better question is "When does a system exist?". To become an art or system the style must endure the test of time. When you teach a system and you train black belts who then teach the original system with out changes to their own black belt students that then teach students the same system without changes to the level of Black Belt then you have created a system.
Three generations of black belts are required to recognize an art or system. Not an easy task. When you have accomplished these requirements then you have a valid style and need no one's approval. Very few instructors can create styles...except on paper.

Thats the best answer I've read here. The menkyo kaiden 30 years in 1 system and 20 in another that I've heard are not realistic because then then world really would have nothing new.

Some people are talented and some are not.

 

[MichiganTKD]

No, I would say most of the "new" styles I've had the misfortune to be introduced to, whether it's here or in a magazine ad, are exactly the way I've described. Either mongrel styles pieced together from from whatever experience the "Founder" had in different arts, or pale rehashes of existing arts. Maybe a few details have been changed depending on the "Founder's" background or preferences, but otherwise nothing truly innovative.

 

[Matt Stone]

I think you're post would be more beleivable, in general terms if you switched the words many and most and replaced them with some or maybe a lot.

I think that MichiganTKD's comments were right on the money... Maybe they aren't all that politically correct, but they are accurate.

Most, not just "many" or "some" that start their own arts are:

- mongrel styles comprised of a little bit of this and a little bit of that, instead of being truly unique.

- created by people who left or werekicked out of their original organization.

- devoid of any real background, history, tradition, etiquette, or philosophy behind them.

There are many, many martial arts instructors, and only a very small handful have any insight worth speaking of. Of that small group, only an even smaller number have the ability, much less the experience or training, to come up with something genuinely new and unique. Of that small number, how many will attempt to develop something new as opposed to remaining within their main art to better that art instead?

 

[MichiganTKD]

Wow, Matt agreed with me! Did the planets align and nobody told me?

Anyway, I could give you a rundown of some of the "new styles" people have undoubtably read about, and veerrrryyyy few, if any, could be considered truly original. Most are just mongrel styles or rehashes of what already exists.

 

[47MartialMan]

Who would man this board? One of the fraudulent martial arts associations that grants "soke-ship" to anyone that pays their fees? Please... Or some external organization that has absolutely no knowledge of the workings of whatever system comes before them for evaluation? Hardly... More thought on this one, too...
Reminds of the government trying to come in and create a standard and faced with the same dilema

 

[punisher73]

No, I would say most of the "new" styles I've had the misfortune to be introduced to, whether it's here or in a magazine ad, are exactly the way I've described. Either mongrel styles pieced together from from whatever experience the "Founder" had in different arts, or pale rehashes of existing arts. Maybe a few details have been changed depending on the "Founder's" background or preferences, but otherwise nothing truly innovative.

As are ALL martial arts. None of the styles that we have today are "original" and had no influence from something else. Even styles accepted today alot of times were looked down upon by the other styles when they were started.

Just some examples, TKD is criticised because Gen Choi was only a 2nd degree blackbelt in Japanese karate before coming back to Korea and starting TKD. Funakoshi was criticised for changing the katas to make it safer for school children and that he watered down karate. Shimabuku was criticised for starting isshinryu and taking out the corkscrew punch among other things, even today I see Gojuryu people badmouth the style as incomplete. Choki Motobu was criticised for being a fighter and not all the polish as other contemparies. Ed Parker was criticised for what he did and many TMA's badmouth American Kenpo. The Chinese MA's say that okinawans had watered down Kung Fu. The Okinawans say that the japanese have watered down Karate. I have read and seen ALL of these examples leveled at arts on forums such as this.

As my old roommate in college was fond of saying. Everyone sucks to someone else. That's what this boils down to, not whether the person is qualified but people just wanting to think that what they do is the best.

 

[searcher]

As are ALL martial arts. None of the styles that we have today are "original" and had no influence from something else. Even styles accepted today alot of times were looked down upon by the other styles when they were started.

Just some examples, TKD is criticised because Gen Choi was only a 2nd degree blackbelt in Japanese karate before coming back to Korea and starting TKD. Funakoshi was criticised for changing the katas to make it safer for school children and that he watered down karate. Shimabuku was criticised for starting isshinryu and taking out the corkscrew punch among other things, even today I see Gojuryu people badmouth the style as incomplete. Choki Motobu was criticised for being a fighter and not all the polish as other contemparies. Ed Parker was criticised for what he did and many TMA's badmouth American Kenpo. The Chinese MA's say that okinawans had watered down Kung Fu. The Okinawans say that the japanese have watered down Karate. I have read and seen ALL of these examples leveled at arts on forums such as this.

As my old roommate in college was fond of saying. Everyone sucks to someone else. That's what this boils down to, not whether the person is qualified but people just wanting to think that what they do is the best.

Very well said. You have made me think very hard about what "traditional" actually is.

This is a question for the ones who train in a "traditional" martial art, as I consider myself. What makes an art tradtional in your opinion?

Some food for thought on this subject. Ryuei-ryu was not even heard of outside the Nakaima family for many years. When presented to the public many of the masters of the day said it was not a traditional karate style. Then Tsuguro Sakumato won the All-Okinawan Karate Championships and then they all thought otherwise. We might all do well to look at those masters and their change of heart when we discuss this subject.

 

[James Kovacich]

I think that MichiganTKD's comments were right on the money... Maybe they aren't all that politically correct, but they are accurate.

Most, not just "many" or "some" that start their own arts are:

- mongrel styles comprised of a little bit of this and a little bit of that, instead of being truly unique.

- created by people who left or werekicked out of their original organization.

- devoid of any real background, history, tradition, etiquette, or philosophy behind them.

There are many, many martial arts instructors, and only a very small handful have any insight worth speaking of. Of that small group, only an even smaller number have the ability, much less the experience or training, to come up with something genuinely new and unique. Of that small number, how many will attempt to develop something new as opposed to remaining within their main art to better that art instead?

Do you have any scientific proof of this? If not, your "opinion" is no better than mine, and thats why I used the word some.

So were Naha Te, Shuri Te and Tomari Te so differant. Did we need 3 styles at that time in such a small area?

And if they were. How did we come up with so many TRADITIONAL STYLES from these 3 styles? Those damn mongrel traditionalist! See what they started!

Freestyle martial arts are here to stay, like it or not. It soon will surpass boxing as "Americas fight pass time." Mr. Hayashi was teaching my brother in law in the '70's Kumiuchi, a martial art FOUNDED by Mr. Hayashi. My brother in law received his Shodan in 1976 in Kumiuchi, in which the reqirements were to be at least black belt level in Karate and at least a brown belt in Judo. Heres a quote from the late Mr. Hayashi from 1976 talking about his free form combat.
http://www.hayashismartialarts.com/free_form_combat.htm

I know his system is one of the few good ones. You may not see it, but I saw first hand how Tarow and his son performed. Thats enough for me.

Evolution has it's place in the martial arts and who said mongrel styles are not efficient. Effientcy is a major player in the key to what works and what does not. Sorry bro, NOTHING in this day and age can be truly unique.

I think this American 10th degree HAS ALREADY PROVED that MONGREL styles, as you call them, work. :uhyeah:
http://www.knucklepit.com/mixed-martial-arts-john_hackleman.htm

 

[MichiganTKD]

10th Dan eh? Pardon me while I change into my hipwaders. It's getting a bit deep (and smelly!) in here.

 

[James Kovacich]

10th Dan eh? Pardon me while I change into my hipwaders. It's getting a bit deep (and smelly!) in here.

Don't worry about the hip waders just yet. I don't think he was officially "passed the torch" but he was definately promoted to 10 Dan by his instructor the late Walter Godin who passed away shortly after.

Also John Hackelmans Hawaiin Kempo IS THE ONLY Karate derived martial art that is battle tested and passed the test "in it's pure form" in the cage.
I haven't any seen other art do anything even close.

 

[James Kovacich]

10th Dan eh? Pardon me while I change into my hipwaders. It's getting a bit deep (and smelly!) in here.

Heres their mission statement. :uhyeah:

- Mission Statement -

The Pit/Hawaiian Kempo is the ultimate in martial arts and fitness.
We started in martial arts and fitness over 30 years ago, and have evolved into the most effective, functional, practical, proven, "state of the art" system of martial arts and fitness in the world today.

The Pit is a blend of "old school" training, attitude, power and discipline combined with a "cutting edge" scientific, modern, result-oriented, tested & proven curriculum. The Pit's mission is to provide a vehicle for everyone of all ages to realize their full potential, get strong, be confident, get into great shape, make friends, and learn self-defense...while having fun."

 

[47MartialMan]

Are we allowed to post martial arts schools and teacher whom we believe should not have created their own style, but did so?

 

[James Kovacich]

It seems it might be on topic. But beware. Before slander, make sure you have good reason.

I posted The Pit because. it went along with creating a new system which he did. If you read the link I posted his art orininally was Kajukenbo

 

[MichiganTKD]

I see. And surviving this "Pit" fits the definition of creating a new art eh? Gee, how many ads have I seen in Black Belt proclaiming "the most modern, effective, deadliest art in the world"? Too many to count, each more filled with hyperbole than the next.
What exactly is the difference between "Hawaiin Kenpo" and non-Hawaiin Kenpo? Or "Hawaiin Kenpo" and UFC?
And slander would be knowingly spreading a lie about someone verbally that harms their reputation. Trust me, this knucklehead doesn't need me to hurt his reputation. Guys like him are perfectly capable of making themselves look like doofuses.

 

[James Kovacich]

I see. And surviving this "Pit" fits the definition of creating a new art eh? Gee, how many ads have I seen in Black Belt proclaiming "the most modern, effective, deadliest art in the world"? Too many to count, each more filled with hyperbole than the next.
What exactly is the difference between "Hawaiin Kenpo" and non-Hawaiin Kenpo? Or "Hawaiin Kenpo" and UFC?
And slander would be knowingly spreading a lie about someone verbally that harms their reputation. Trust me, this knucklehead doesn't need me to hurt his reputation. Guys like him are perfectly capable of making themselves look like doofuses.

Don't get to offensive. I was just saying speak some truth and not speculation.

If you clicked the link I provided you would already know that when he changed his systems name he (as he states it) used the M instead of an N bbecause his art always had some form of full contact in it and the Hawaiin Kenpo systems he felt were weaker from the traditional training involving Kata and such.

His instructor was one of the original Kajukenbo students and he recognized his students new version of Kempo and promoted him to 10th dan.

Hey you guys have your opinions about "the mongrel arts." I think it's appropriate to show whose system is TRULY FUNCTIONAL! :uhyeah:

 

[tshadowchaser]

Mod. Note.
Please, keep the conversation on topic..-

1) What is the mininum rank a person should hold before starting their own system??

2) How long should a person have studied and or had time in grade?

3) What other requirements should a person have?

4) Should there be some type of exam board or accrediation board for testing to ensure high standards?

Sheldon Bedell
-MT Moderator