Questions for those who started their own system/ style

[Headhunter]

Silly, they (the instructors) challenged me. You're in the who can I beat up mindset / camp. The only thing one learns from sparring with higher-skilled instructors is what you should have know to begin with. You aren't good enough.

Reminds me of the hard sparring pair during my intro stint @ the Isshin ryu school. The Newbie who gets his clock cleaned (he knew nothing when he thought he could try something on a 2nd degree black-belt who prizes fighting); and that 2nd Degree Fighter who can't resist the kill shot against the self-puffed newbie.

You've trained twice as long yet haven't progressed in understanding the objectives of training compared to where I was in a month.

Your's it the mindset of the boxer (I think that was in your list). Sparring can produce good, even higher level skills. This is quite evident in boxing progress. Not @ the level of traditional karate though.

Oh be quiet, you do realise no ones taking your nonsense seriously right now?

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Well, I qualified my stance to differentiate the difference between sport methods, what you propose; and the traditional martial art method. You cite factually proven. I can cite TAM'rs who have different experience, including myself.

So you say some "first" social psychology studies 'factually" proves so. I guess a social psychologist is then who you should hang on the wall of your dojo. Here's a sample of my kind of study:

http://www.tkdchungdokwan.com/files/TkdStudentManual2012.pdf

This one has pluses + minuses. Theres' quite a variety among traditional karate manuals, given the numerous styles and orgs. within styles. Quality is all over the place, some cover or emphasize this, others that. Hey, there's even social studies content in there too, like rules for practicing the art, and codes of conduct.



We have some commonality on objectives, some difference. Difference in approach. For one, the styles of Shaolin kempo and American kenpo are much more sophisticated TMA styles compared to my rather basic karate style. The bane of these styles is that they are of such higher level and complex, is practitioners fail to access their higher strengths and effectiveness.

So practitioners and this is true of karateka as well, go to the active kumite to learn, as you clearly propose. I'm mean look at how Stephen Thompson fights in MMA, or his kickboxing full contact. It's almost nothing like the kempo he claims to have mastered (3rd degree?). Look at his MMA training, it's kickboxing done rather poorly at that. When the high pressure was on with physically daunting MMA opponents, he crumbled.

This is why I train a much more basic karate like Shotokan, but not Shotokan. It's so much more doable than kenpo, yet very difficult compared to MMA sport training. Note however, as one approaches the black-belt, the techniques in my style begin to assimilate somewhat of a kenpo nature. Not really kenpo, not that sophisticated.

What I think is very interesting on this forum is to see how Simon, that Kyo Greenbelt progresses. I saw you guys started a post regarding the flinching, which I just commented upon. HHHmmmmm.

To clarify, i was not asking the differences between the purpose of shaolin kempo and shotokan karate. I wanted to know what YOUR (as an individual) objective is to learning martial arts, and i will share my own (as an individual) objective so we can compare. Identifying what my arts objective is only tells you what the founder of the art cared about, and honestly i cant stand the founder of SKK (@Buka want to go on a villari rant?)

Ive no clue what flinching comment youre referring to. I probably havent read that thread and your getting my comment confused with someone else...or just lumping all the forum posters together.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Oh be quiet, you do realise no ones taking your nonsense seriously right now?

Of course not, 'cause you're right you said so.

 

[ShotoNoob]

To clarify, i was not asking the differences between the purpose of shaolin kempo and shotokan karate. I wanted to know what YOUR (as an individual) objective is to learning martial arts, and i will share my own (as an individual) objective so we can compare. Identifying what my arts objective is only tells you what the founder of the art cared about, and honestly i cant stand the founder of SKK (@Buka want to go on a villari rant?)

Well, for one, I suspect the "realness" of some of the posters here. When I recount examples clearly specified by, most definately contained in the traditional karate curriculum of the 20th Century let's say, and comments come back as incredulous, well....

This is why I typically get along with karate instructors. I'm open to what they have to say, but I always relate how I practice and what I believe back to the curriculum. And can provide a coherent explanation. I also got thrown out of a karate dojo by a woman black-belt instructor who didn't want to hear anything I had to say. OTOH, I'm usually more compatible with woman instructors than men. Most karate instructors in my area will listen and discuss. It's typically the more sport-competitor ones who believe they know it all, are so good in there own mind. And like the 2nd degree Isshin ryu black-belt, they can be very, very good fighters.

What I did was walk into TMA schools and learn what the curriculum was about. Followed the curriculum as taught by various instructors. Listened to what they said. Followed along and practiced what they taught. Got a hold of manuals and compared and studied them.

Like many people, I was interested in self defense. I was also interested in winning at kumite competition because then this was a test. So that's a start.

I have no interest in creating my own martial art. Zero. Within that, there are some areas of my own karate style which I diverge or depart from the strict curriculum. Instructors will tell you some dumb stuff along the way because we are all flawed. So I ignore what I have come to understand as dumb or wrong. But this is ok because I'm always using traditional karate or TMA principles.

Ive no clue what flinching comment youre referring to. I probably havent read that thread and your getting my comment confused with someone else...or just lumping all the forum posters together.

I'm tying subject areas together. This was in response to kumite tournament trouble Simon was recounting, and a thread was just started. And having no idea is a standard reply here.

So, what's motivating your participation in martial arts?

 

[ShotoNoob]

Identifying what my arts objective is only tells you what the founder of the art cared about, and honestly i cant stand the founder of SKK (@Buka want to go on a villari rant?)

Bruce Lee was of course an inspiration to me. An inspiration, not an idol. He once quoted the traditional karates as a "classical mess." IMO this is true. Yet it is an incomplete truth; therefore false as a principle truth.

This BUKA you say have founded SKK, which I take it is some kenpo karate style. People founding their own arts, and like GPS, presume the TAM models, like Bruce advocated, were somehow broken or seriously impaired.

My presumption, based upon my personal training experience, is that I DO NOT know more than the masters, in principle. There is all kinds of trouble, etc. with karate styles, we can criticize like Bruce Lee. Yet that overlooks the bigger picture of why the masters proposed what they did and why this is common, why these commonalities are spread across all the traditional karate styles which sprang up all over asia, the TMA model.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Bruce Lee was of course an inspiration to me. An inspiration, not an idol. He once quoted the traditional karates as a "classical mess." IMO this is true. Yet it is an incomplete truth; therefore false as a principle truth.

This BUKA you say have founded SKK, which I take it is some kenpo karate style. People founding their own arts, and like GPS, presume the TAM models, like Bruce advocated, were somehow broken or seriously impaired.

My presumption, based upon my personal training experience, is that I DO NOT know more than the masters, in principle. There is all kinds of trouble, etc. with karate styles, we can criticize like Bruce Lee. Yet that overlooks the bigger picture of why the masters proposed what they did and why this is common, why these commonalities are spread across all the traditional karate styles which sprang up all over asia, the TMA model.

To clarify, fred villari is the one that founded skk (shaolin kempo karate). Buka just happens to share my immense dislike for the guy.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Well, for one, I suspect the "realness" of some of the posters here. When I recount examples clearly specified by, most definately contained in the traditional karate curriculum of the 20th Century let's say, and comments come back as incredulous, well....

This is why I typically get along with karate instructors. I'm open to what they have to say, but I always relate how I practice and what I believe back to the curriculum. And can provide a coherent explanation. I also got thrown out of a karate dojo by a woman black-belt instructor who didn't want to hear anything I had to say. OTOH, I'm usually more compatible with woman instructors than men. Most karate instructors in my area will listen and discuss. It's typically the more sport-competitor ones who believe they know it all, are so good in there own mind. And like the 2nd degree Isshin ryu black-belt, they can be very, very good fighters.

What I did was walk into TMA schools and learn what the curriculum was about. Followed the curriculum as taught by various instructors. Listened to what they said. Followed along and practiced what they taught. Got a hold of manuals and compared and studied them.

Like many people, I was interested in self defense. I was also interested in winning at kumite competition because then this was a test. So that's a start.

I have no interest in creating my own martial art. Zero. Within that, there are some areas of my own karate style which I diverge or depart from the strict curriculum. Instructors will tell you some dumb stuff along the way because we are all flawed. So I ignore what I have come to understand as dumb or wrong. But this is ok because I'm always using traditional karate or TMA principles.



I'm tying subject areas together. This was in response to kumite tournament trouble Simon was recounting, and a thread was just started. And having no idea is a standard reply here.

So, what's motivating your participation in martial arts?

Regarding realness: you think theyre the same person in multiple accounts, or you think they dont practice anything?

To make sure i understand: your initial purpose for training was self defense and kumite/sparring? Is that still your goal or has it changed? From your posta ive gathered its more along the self-enlightenment route, although i could be wrong.

For me, my reason for training is that it is something I can focus on, and takes me out of whatever is happening in my life. Its something where i can see consistent improvement, and the dojo is a place of peace. I also learned a lot on how to handle anger and aggression through martial arts, qnd going back to class can help me with continue my own anger management. The fighting and stuff is very much secondary for me, at least currently.

Regarding the tournament, i think i read the first page or two, then stopped. So youre probably getting me confused with someone else.

 

[Buka]

This BUKA you say have founded SKK, which I take it is some kenpo karate style. People founding their own arts, and like GPS, presume the TAM models, like Bruce advocated, were somehow broken or seriously impaired.

I'm sorry, bro, I'm slow on the uptake sometimes. I don't understand. Please be patient explaining.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I've said this multiple times already, we are communicating on an internet blog

Yes. Yes, you have. And you've been wrong every time you've said it. But what do such details matter, when you can't fill in the bigger concepts of your own posts?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Forgot to add two things to my original reply...1: The places you've trained at seem F'ed up. Instructors challenging students, people actively trying to hurt new students, or show their superiority. None of the places I've trained at do anything like that, and honestly if I went to a school and saw what you've described going on, I would walk out.
2: I actually don't care in the slightest who I can beat up. I'm not out to challenge anyone or prove myself better...I had enough of that in my teens. Now for me it's about self-improvement (and teaching beginners, I've found lately that I get an odd joy out of that), but like I said in my last reply, competition has been proven, in any field, sport or otherwise, to help improve oneself.

His description of the places he goes to - and his disparagement of his "current" school - remind me of another poster who complained about his school and talked about how good he was in spite of it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Well, I qualified my stance to differentiate the difference between sport methods, what you propose; and the traditional martial art method. You cite factually proven. I can cite TAM'rs who have different experience, including myself.

So you say some "first" social psychology studies 'factually" proves so. I guess a social psychologist is then who you should hang on the wall of your dojo. Here's a sample of my kind of study:

http://www.tkdchungdokwan.com/files/TkdStudentManual2012.pdf

This one has pluses + minuses. Theres' quite a variety among traditional karate manuals, given the numerous styles and orgs. within styles. Quality is all over the place, some cover or emphasize this, others that. Hey, there's even social studies content in there too, like rules for practicing the art, and codes of conduct.



We have some commonality on objectives, some difference. Difference in approach. For one, the styles of Shaolin kempo and American kenpo are much more sophisticated TMA styles compared to my rather basic karate style. The bane of these styles is that they are of such higher level and complex, is practitioners fail to access their higher strengths and effectiveness.

So practitioners and this is true of karateka as well, go to the active kumite to learn, as you clearly propose. I'm mean look at how Stephen Thompson fights in MMA, or his kickboxing full contact. It's almost nothing like the kempo he claims to have mastered (3rd degree?). Look at his MMA training, it's kickboxing done rather poorly at that. When the high pressure was on with physically daunting MMA opponents, he crumbled.

This is why I train a much more basic karate like Shotokan, but not Shotokan. It's so much more doable than kenpo, yet very difficult compared to MMA sport training. Note however, as one approaches the black-belt, the techniques in my style begin to assimilate somewhat of a kenpo nature. Not really kenpo, not that sophisticated.

What I think is very interesting on this forum is to see how Simon, that Kyo Greenbelt progresses. I saw you guys started a post regarding the flinching, which I just commented upon. HHHmmmmm.

Stuff and nonsense. You use so many words, and actually say so very little. No real substance, in spite of all that effort. Effort, it seems, put into avoiding saying anything really important.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

In my teens, I never cared to beat people up.

You seem quite keen on claiming to have done so quite a lot since then. Where did you lose your way?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

What I did was walk into TMA schools and learn what the curriculum was about. Followed the curriculum as taught by various instructors. Listened to what they said. Followed along and practiced what they taught. Got a hold of manuals and compared and studied them.

Hmm...two interesting points here.

1. You appear to have been in and out of a lot of schools. Yet you take every opportunity to claim some sort of style purity when someone shares that they've gained experience in more than one styles (going so far as to castigate one person who had experience in ::gasp:: 3 styles). Hypocrisy, anyone?
2. You really think studying a manual really lets you learn much about an art?

It's pretty clear your "more than a decade" of experience isn't really that, at all. You've dabbled for more than a decade. You haven't really been listening to instructors, from what you've said. So you dabble. And, apparently, get in a lot of challenge fights, initiated by instructors. And win them all. Including one that apparently happened early on at your first TMA school.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Bruce Lee was of course an inspiration to me. An inspiration, not an idol. He once quoted the traditional karates as a "classical mess." IMO this is true. Yet it is an incomplete truth; therefore false as a principle truth.

Nice attempt to sound wise, while actually saying absolutely nothing. Well done!

This BUKA you say have founded SKK, which I take it is some kenpo karate style. People founding their own arts, and like GPS, presume the TAM models, like Bruce advocated, were somehow broken or seriously impaired.

You should actually read what you're replying to.

My presumption, based upon my personal training experience, is that I DO NOT know more than the masters, in principle. There is all kinds of trouble, etc. with karate styles, we can criticize like Bruce Lee. Yet that overlooks the bigger picture of why the masters proposed what they did and why this is common, why these commonalities are spread across all the traditional karate styles which sprang up all over asia, the TMA model.

Yet, you clearly presume to know more than everyone in this forum (regardless of their experience) and your stories show you believe yourself superior to every instructor you've ever had, as well. The only advantage those masters have, in principle, is you've not met them.

 

[dvcochran]

This is well written with wrong conclusion. It proposes an absolute without you providing your definition, description of TMA. What you proclaim is that there is quote- big chunks missing - then like all typical MMA proponents, conveniently drop the ball.

Here's a buzzword; "evolution." Meaning I know better than the collective wisdom of the let's say karate masters. So of course, "fools errand" makes the perfect case - out of nothing.

Your next paragraph talks about the scoring on the whole of each contestants skills then TMA would prevail. Huh? Traditional karate principles extend universally. The skills are universal, and readily transferable.



I've said this multiple times already, we are communicating on an internet blog... It's not like hands on practice or training. Oh, back to you're donning the superior one mantle ) "strange," "misguided."

I've never encountered anything like your closing line. And we have some super egos heading up our org. Your statement about the how/why of bashing, I had it right, you are squarely in beat the other guy up camp. With martial health in mind. no less. Whatever that means & let's toss in "evolution" again.

My model ain't your model.

If you had taken the time to read the first paragraph, you would have understood it was focused on MMA. Even when you are spoon fed the answer, you get it wrong.

The definition of evolution - "the gradual development of something, especially from a simple to a more complex form."
I don't know what the hell you are talking about.

Model? For certain. I am guessing your model is make with match sticks or tinker toys.

 

[Headhunter]

His description of the places he goes to - and his disparagement of his "current" school - remind me of another poster who complained about his school and talked about how good he was in spite of it.

Was that the kick boxer who said how bad kickboxing is and how boxing would destroy any kickboxer....that guy was funny

 

[Flying Crane]

Jeezuz. The self-delusion on display in this thread is truly...Trumpian...

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Was that the kick boxer who said how bad kickboxing is and how boxing would destroy any kickboxer....that guy was funny

I was thinking of the TKD guy. But that one works for the example, too.

 

[Headhunter]

I was thinking of the TKD guy. But that one works for the example, too.

May hVe been taekwondo as well I dunno. I lose track of all the trolls we get here

 

[ShotoNoob]

To clarify, fred villari is the one that founded skk (shaolin kempo karate). Buka just happens to share my immense dislike for the guy.

Why don't you care for Fred Villari?